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Why do Muslims bury dead bodies instead of cremating them?
- Thread starter sirajstc
- Start date
Didn't know that. I apologize for my mistake. Hmm, can you explain to me what a hadeeth is?
Is the battle of Badr related to the verse I mentioned? What are your sources in saying so?
The Muslims are agreed that the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) is the second of the two revealed fundamental sources of Islam, after the Glorious Qur'an. The authentic Sunnah is contained within the vast body of hadeeth literature.1.
A hadith (pl. ahadith) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; 'Abdullah b. al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imam al-Bukhari, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."2.
During the lifetime of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and after his death, his Companions (Sahabah) used to refer to him directly, when quoting his sayings. The Successors (Tabi'un) followed suit; some of them used to quote the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) through the Companions while others would omit the intermediate authority - such a hadith was later known as mursal. It was found that the missing link between the Successor and the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) might be one person, i.e. a Companion, or two people, the extra person being an older Successor who heard the hadith from the Companion. This is an example of how the need for the verification of each isnad arose; Imam Malik (d. 179) said, "The first one to utilise the isnad was Ibn Shihab al- Zuhri" (d. 124).3.
The other more important reason was the deliberate fabrication of ahadith by various sects which appeared amongst the Muslims, in order to support their views (see later, under discussion of maudu' ahadith). Ibn Sirin (d. 110), a Successor, said, "They would not ask about the isnad. But when the fitnah (trouble, turmoil, esp. civil war) happened, they said: Name to us your men. So the narrations of the Ahl al-Sunnah (Adherents to the Sunnah) would be accepted, while those of the Ahl al-Bid'ah (Adherents to Innovation) would not be accepted."4.
A hadith (pl. ahadith) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; 'Abdullah b. al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imam al-Bukhari, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."2.
During the lifetime of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and after his death, his Companions (Sahabah) used to refer to him directly, when quoting his sayings. The Successors (Tabi'un) followed suit; some of them used to quote the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) through the Companions while others would omit the intermediate authority - such a hadith was later known as mursal. It was found that the missing link between the Successor and the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) might be one person, i.e. a Companion, or two people, the extra person being an older Successor who heard the hadith from the Companion. This is an example of how the need for the verification of each isnad arose; Imam Malik (d. 179) said, "The first one to utilise the isnad was Ibn Shihab al- Zuhri" (d. 124).3.
The other more important reason was the deliberate fabrication of ahadith by various sects which appeared amongst the Muslims, in order to support their views (see later, under discussion of maudu' ahadith). Ibn Sirin (d. 110), a Successor, said, "They would not ask about the isnad. But when the fitnah (trouble, turmoil, esp. civil war) happened, they said: Name to us your men. So the narrations of the Ahl al-Sunnah (Adherents to the Sunnah) would be accepted, while those of the Ahl al-Bid'ah (Adherents to Innovation) would not be accepted."4.
I mentioned the context to prove this was not revealed in order to fight against the innocent, but against oppressors. also mentioned u that all the fighting not coming in to the category of promoting violence,..if i accept you, I will label even nelson mandela (nobel price winner) as a terrorist coz even he participated in fighting activities.
My Answers clear that Quran put red carpet for peace and hate the anti social elements and oppressors.
in some places of the quotation of Ibn Isham mentioned as the carevan incident as the badr battle.so pasted the link to show u that its incorrect.
Thank you for the reply. I was wondering why I have not replied to you. We clearly are going on circles. Anyways, from what I see here's where we stand.
It seems like your definition of violence does not include an defensive act, whether blood shed is there or not. My definition of violence includes all acts that lead to blood shed. So from where you stand it may seem like quran is not promoting violence. The view is subjective. Until we agree on a common ground this will lead no where. It is like the terrorists who flew a plane to the world trade center believing their act is justified. It is what they see and what they believe to be true.
Yeah Violence doesn't include defensive act this is what I have been telling you, and there are many instances where Quran do mention abt fight against oppression and for defensive purpose. I am quite surprised with your definition, I don't know what you will do and how you u r going to defend your self when some one come to kill you..I don't think you will say to the killer, My dear "kill me" I will not fight back to you coz if i fight back and in case of blood shed it will lead to VIOLENCE!!. OR suppose If some mischief Come and rape your mother or wife in front of u, and you have no option than fighting to protect them, this case what you will do.I don't think You will let him rape as you don't want to be violence by protection your mother , sisters and wife.
Maybe for the terrorist but as per me even the same terrorist who flew the plan to the WTC also not justified.,as it is not at all for any defense act and neither it is protecting some one's life.so this example is not appropriate here
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Thank you brother. Respect.
Ok, I think its fair to say that.
Yes, But still I am not satisfied that all the fights were done in an offensive manner. Motives for some battles are still not clear. (Ex: Raiding maccan caravans. It seems there have been 7-8 raids).
Fair enough. You see I was thinking with a Buddhist mind where killing,blood shed is wrong whatever way you define it. But I see that in a sociological view there can be an error in the definition. one might have to fight in unavoidable circumstances. Ex: Our war with the LTTE.
I will bring them down with a combination of dragon wheel kick and right hand upper cut.
Your point taken.
The example was to explain that definitions will differ according to beliefs/understandings, not to say that their behavior is an example of a defensive act.
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Thank you brother. Respect.
You are welcome brother, hope you will maintain the same respect.
Ok, I think its fair to say that.
Thanks.Finally you accepted.
Yes, But still I am not satisfied that all the fights were done in an offensive manner. Motives for some battles are still not clear. (Ex: Raiding maccan caravans. It seems there have been 7-8 raids).
OK. you are not satisfied with that. then what abt this versus in quran. do u agree Quran is not promoting violence but for defensive and prevailing peace with the following.
"And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors. (Qur'an: 2:190);
"Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong." (Qur'an: 2:193).
"....thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them....... Hence, if they do not let you be, and do not offer you peace, and do not stay their hands, seize them and slay them whenever you come upon them: for it is against these that We have clearly empowered you [to make war]." (Qur'an: 4: 90-91).
“If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.” [Al-Qur’an 9:6]
Fair enough. You see I was thinking with a Buddhist mind where killing,blood shed is wrong whatever way you define it. But I see that in a sociological view there can be an error in the definition. one might have to fight in unavoidable circumstances. Ex: Our war with the LTTE.
of course this is what Quran said, when some one restrict you from your rights, spreading mischiefs,and the same unavoidable circumstance in which we want to protect us from oppressors then only u should fight, without bloodshed fight is not possible, there is no difference in the definition. bt you take it as different way... Quran never allowed any one to kill any human being see the verse below.still if u cant be satisfied I cant do anything,other than praying from God to give you good wisdom to understand this
"whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely" 5:32
I will bring them down with a combination of dragon wheel kick and right hand upper cut.
I hope you won't say Kick and upper cut without blood shed
Your point taken.
Thanks.great.
The example was to explain that definitions will differ according to beliefs/understandings, not to say that their behavior is an example of a defensive act.
that is their belief, as you believed in LTTE fight, bt for tamils sinhalese army are terrorists.
So if we discard the points that we both agree upon, we come to a place where we should find whether quaran is only talking about fighting for self defense or not.
Yes these versus seems to be talking about defending self. But what do you say about following versus?
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah - (Quaran 2:191-2:193)
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. (Quaran 2:216)
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.(Quran 4:89)
And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain (Quran 4:104)
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (Quran 9:5)
O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place (9:38-9:39)
Yes these versus seems to be talking about defending self. But what do you say about following versus?
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah - (Quaran 2:191-2:193)
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. (Quaran 2:216)
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.(Quran 4:89)
And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain (Quran 4:104)
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (Quran 9:5)
O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place (9:38-9:39)
Machan I think you took some verses from Anti Islamic website who fabricated the translation of the versus in order to malign islam.
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah - (Quaran 2:191-2:193)
Here you can see translation of pickthal, sahih international.Both of them says fight against oppressors and and fight not until they attack you, and etc.You can read the full context (2:191-196)So this is fabricated translation.. http://quran.com/2/190-196
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. (Quaran 2:216)
This is what from the start we have been discussing. And your 1st accusation.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.(Quran 4:89)
Again, it is out of context see the next verse (4:90) it is talking abt peace, 4:89 says only with those who are not coming for peace and moreover in this verse 4.89 which says if they turn back only(to enmity)you fight them. but your translation say renegades, I don’t know what is meant by renegades in this translation. Refer the full context http://quran.com/4/86-92
And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain (Quran 4:104)
What is the problem in this verse, this verse was revealed immediately after the Uhud war.see the thafsir of this word. http://quran.com/4/104
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (Quran 9:5)
Again it is out of context,this verse is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality.
In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them except with those who have treaty. This is obvious during a battle field any general will tell the same.
And why missed out to say next verse “If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.” [Al-Qur’an 9:6] it is very much clear the source that you copied from, picking the verses without context.
O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place (9:38-9:39)[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]
This is again for the Tabuk Battle, of course for a battle any army General will not accept if some one hesitate to fight against enemies, this happened when men hesitated because of the hardship and the extreme heat from which they were suffering, this verse was revealed(9:38) and again it says in 9:39 if you do not go forth, [if you do not] set out with the Prophet for the struggle, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement, and He will substitute [you with] another folk other than you, that is, He will bring them in your place, and you will not hurt Him, that is, God, or [‘him’ as being] the Prophet (s), at all, should you neglect to help him [to victory], for God [Himself] will indeed bring victory to His religion; for God has power over all things, including bringing victory to His religion and His Prophet.
I hope you will have some more versus to clarify.Surely you can bring it up.
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah - (Quaran 2:191-2:193)
Here you can see translation of pickthal, sahih international.Both of them says fight against oppressors and and fight not until they attack you, and etc.You can read the full context (2:191-196)So this is fabricated translation.. http://quran.com/2/190-196
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. (Quaran 2:216)
This is what from the start we have been discussing. And your 1st accusation.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.(Quran 4:89)
Again, it is out of context see the next verse (4:90) it is talking abt peace, 4:89 says only with those who are not coming for peace and moreover in this verse 4.89 which says if they turn back only(to enmity)you fight them. but your translation say renegades, I don’t know what is meant by renegades in this translation. Refer the full context http://quran.com/4/86-92
And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain (Quran 4:104)
What is the problem in this verse, this verse was revealed immediately after the Uhud war.see the thafsir of this word. http://quran.com/4/104
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (Quran 9:5)
Again it is out of context,this verse is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality.
In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them except with those who have treaty. This is obvious during a battle field any general will tell the same.
And why missed out to say next verse “If one amongst the pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge.” [Al-Qur’an 9:6] it is very much clear the source that you copied from, picking the verses without context.
O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place (9:38-9:39)[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]
This is again for the Tabuk Battle, of course for a battle any army General will not accept if some one hesitate to fight against enemies, this happened when men hesitated because of the hardship and the extreme heat from which they were suffering, this verse was revealed(9:38) and again it says in 9:39 if you do not go forth, [if you do not] set out with the Prophet for the struggle, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement, and He will substitute [you with] another folk other than you, that is, He will bring them in your place, and you will not hurt Him, that is, God, or [‘him’ as being] the Prophet (s), at all, should you neglect to help him [to victory], for God [Himself] will indeed bring victory to His religion; for God has power over all things, including bringing victory to His religion and His Prophet.
I hope you will have some more versus to clarify.Surely you can bring it up.
Nope all verses I took were from Pickthal, YusufAli or from Shakir. I found that many scholars consider their translations to be accurate. But yes anti Islamic sites sometimes add parts(inside brackets) to make a point. I sometimes take it if it supports my argument.
Here is my source,
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/
Below translation is from Picktaal
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] - (added word, but suitable) is worse than slaughter [of non-believers] (added word)...-Pickthal part of 2:191
and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah - Pickthal part of 2:193
source http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191
I did not find pickthal translation in the link you provided.
Allright, before going further lets agree on what translation we are gonna use. I prefer pickthals version, because many consider it to be accurate.
OK,Pickthal. but I suspect you, as you are misleading the people and to leading to loose our interest.
I have no such agenda. This was not intentional I can assure you.
Firstly of all did carefully read my post??
I mentioned that it is part of the verse.
Secondly do you think the full verse, whatever you added change the meaning of the verse? The second part says fight with them at the place of worship, only if they attack you. First part says slay them wherever you find them. Two different things, that's why I divided it.
Whatever you say man, I don't really care. I think you don't know anything about my intentions. Let's just drop everything else and talk about the above verse. Explain it to me in your own words.(The whole thing).
every time when ever you put alleged versus I kept on explaining you, I have replied to the above also, I hope u wil come up with some more verses now,Inshallah I am ready to answer for that also.
Not always. A sentence may carry its own meaning when, it is not linked to the previous or next sentences.
Slay them wherever you find them.. How is this talking about defense? I'm talking about the the word 'wherever'.
OK.now your 6 or 7 alleged verses reduced to one word, ok.even if we take that part of the verse, before the next sentence start, "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter.
have you not noted it is talking abt persecution, so it is against persecutors..Of course against oppressors, persecutors you will fight wherever......won't you do so.
see brother, you won't find any single mistake in the Quran, if you try to do so, you will end up in loosing side as it has been happening to you..But still I prefer you to bring some more verses so i will be ready to answer you,Inshallah atleast at one point of time you have to accept quran dont promote violence and it is a misconception.
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