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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mononoke" data-source="post: 5576765" data-attributes="member: 238323">So you are willing to accept that humans, the oceans, the galaxies are a direct consequence of the physical laws. And that these laws can sustain the Universe. All you are pushing for is that God created the fundamental laws that govern the universe. Firstly, I don't have a problem with that type of god. This god not a person it is force at best. The only reason you think this god is person is because you see humans creating computers, and you assume that you can extend this to everything. But I see Nature creating more Nature, and there is no need for a supernatural personality to create the Universe. We can see both an agent driven and and agent-less forms of creation, and agent-less model seem to be far more successful.But more importantly, saying a supernatural deity created everything does not resolve the question. who created God, if 'all things are created'. Surely, how did god come about. Please don't say he is eternal. Because that doesn't answer anything, it's a cop-out. We have no reason to believe that idea besides 'faith'. Now don't get me wrong, I believe that we need faith. Faith is an integral part of logic and reason. But I beleive that we should restrict our faith to as little a domain as possible.  I also feel that people resort to an eternal agent because they don't understand how time works. There is no reason to believe that future events can't affect the past. Infact, there is a solution to the Wheeler-deWitt equation that shows that the universe can spontaneously create itself from a future instance of it. Again, feel free to wiki this stuff. this resolves the questions about creation and creator, becasue now it is permissible for the creation to create the creation.</blockquote>

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