Why do Muslims copy and Paste same thing instead of telling new?

[dilankandy]

I said you are illogical debater, but still need to see your answers.

Why would u need to see my answers if they are illogical an non rational? Why dont u just ignore me then?

 

[I love Srilanka]

Why would u need to see my answers if they are illogical an non rational? Why dont u just ignore me then?

Then don't answer me, I just thought to check at least u have an illogical answer. anyway,leave it.,I ignore you.

 

[I love Srilanka]

I will not deny the fact that Islam has a good side. However I have not seen any muslim talk about the things that I admire about Islam. The reason is that muslims try to finish every sentence with, It is because of GOD. Non muslims here who have no interest on GOD will not find this amusing. If you learn to talk to the audience, and understand that there is a doubt about GODs existence, and it can never be proved, then non muslims might listen to you.

I dont know specifically which one you are talking abt with regard to muslim try to finish every sentence with God.but I feel before we talk to a non muslim(atheist) it is much appropriate first discuss with him about GOD concept, unless and until he is convinced with God concept, there is no point in go ahead with further step, neither he will agree with islam or any thiest religion.
How Zakir naik proving existence of God to an atheist is as in the link, you can refer and put your comments.http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/comparative_religion/atheism.htm

I cannot talk for anyone else but me. I'm here to argue, learn, get more closer to truth and enjoy while doing it. I don't want to disprove anything. But when I see a point to argue, I raise it. Otherwise how can we discuss? If I can raise a point that can disprove Islam that would be really interesting to discuss. You might find it obviously wrong and so we can settle what is what. Is there any problem with that?

No problem,I am also here for the same.I am trying my best to answer convincingly for any questions though I am not a big scholar.

And FYI, I have agreed on several occasions with muslims. If you raise a rational, logical point how can I not agree? How can anyone not agree??

I dont remember you agreed something with which we discussed, hopefully you will agree with other post(Islam promoting violence) in the future inshallah.




Thanks, but these are not concepts but practices. Fundamental concepts should be things like creationism, hell and heaven, etc..

[/I]

Beliefs in Islam

Pillars of Faith (6 Beliefs of the Muslim)
-Allah (The One Almighty God of all)
-Angels (made from light)
-Books (all revealed scriptures are from Allah)
-Prophets (messengers of Allah)
-Day of Judgment of Judgment (everyone will be resurrected)
-Predestination (Divine Decree of Allah)

Every Muslim is required to believe in all six (6) of the above to be considered as a true Muslim.if you have any question on anything above, will discuss in details in the future.

 

[AncientGlory]

but I feel before we talk to a non muslim(atheist) it is much appropriate first discuss with him about GOD concept,

Only a person who is quite familiar with GOD concept can reject it and become an atheist.

unless and until he is convinced with God concept, there is no point in go ahead with further step, neither he will agree with islam or any thiest religion.

You can try to convince an athiest GOD is there. But you will not do this by saying, GOD is there because GOD says so or GOD is there because it is written in the book. That is my point. If you want to convince, talk in a language that they will listen. Go with logic. Saying this is true because it is written in the book is not logic.

How Zakir naik proving existence of God to an atheist is as in the link, you can refer and put your comments.http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/compar...on/atheism.htm

Did not find any proof there. It is again bunch of things about quran.
From the first video of ZakirNaik I watched, I learned that he is a highly irrational, hypocrite. So reading him is a waste of time in my opinion.

I dont remember you agreed something with which we discussed, hopefully you will agree with other post(Islam promoting violence) in the future inshallah.

I have already agreed on one point.

[/I] Beliefs in Islam

Pillars of Faith (6 Beliefs of the Muslim)
-Allah (The One Almighty God of all)
-Angels (made from light)
-Books (all revealed scriptures are from Allah)
-Prophets (messengers of Allah)
-Day of Judgment of Judgment (everyone will be resurrected)
-Predestination (Divine Decree of Allah)

Every Muslim is required to believe in all six (6) of the above to be considered as a true Muslim.if you have any question on anything above, will discuss in details in the future.

Beliefs in Islam

Now if we analyze.

One GOD - Concept was already there (Christianity, Judaism,etc)
Angels - Concept was already there (Christianity, Judaism,etc)
Religious Scriptures - Not a concept
Prophets - There were many prophets before Muhammad's time. Again a pre existing concept.
Day of judgment - Concept was already there(Christianity)
Predestination - existing concept

So you can see that non of these are original concepts. It is safe to assume Muhammad maybe copied them from already existing religions and modified accordingly.

 

[dilankandy]

There is nothing wrong when some one do something wrong to say it is not correct, either you change or not, it is your freewill. this what another Muslim guy also was arguing. but surely it is a common sense that an idol will not do anything..further i dont want to say anything, as it may hurt the feelings of the Idol worshipers.

Go ahead.. we are not idol worshippers.. I'm not speaking for idol worshipers here but i have to say this. How can you say Worshiping idol is wrong? dont tell me cauze it is written in your book... I remember once a guy here explained why idols, images and Bo trees are used in buddhism. I think ancient glory him self. It was clearly explained there so i'm not gonna do it again..

You never convinced, then again you cant even do so, as it is obvious, nothing is going to be natural, without help of a super power this planet cant run.

doen not make any sense to my tikiri mole.. then can you explain how that super power came to exist? (without any scriptures please) then we can discuss about further matters.

Neither secretly nor openly we tried to convert you, it is our obligation to pass the message to non believers, otherwise we will be questioned by Allah.bt again accepting or not accepting up to you.but we passed our message...frankly shall i tell something if i hurt your feeling please forgive me we already treat Buddhism as zombie. it is as if human without brain, tree without root, car without tyre etc...

I will give u a simple example according to ur own logic
1. I'm a non believer. cause god wanted me to be like that. therefore he created me as a non believer..
2. You try to make me a believer..
3. 2 goes against 1
4. you work against god
5. Therefore you go to hell (messing with god's will)

(this is for the readers to understand)but you can call this illogical or non rational or what ever bullshit u want...

Not simple answer, call it as blind answer

look whos saying..

1st of all, if we dont know, u have to clarify, asking again again do u know, do u know will not clarify anything.
I dont know you worship or respect whatever you call it

this proves that u argue without knowing facts. man!! words have different meanings. first try to understand that.. pls nxt time speak of what u know. that is the reason why ancient glory kicks ur ass so far up in the sky..

even if it is a respect, building a statue and bowing down to that idol is not at all necessary...if u want to respect , it is not necessary to show respect only by building a statue and bowing down..

wow.. then why do you worship to kaaba or what ever you call that big black box which looks like made out of stone? then why do almost all the muslims have picture of kaaba? then why do almost all the muslims vehicles have a small idol of kaaba and hanging down from the mirror?

then you should start making idol for everyone whom u love and respect including your father and mother..

Man then why do we have idols and statues of our national heroes? of course if i can i will make a statue of my parents out of gold..
(and it has nothing to do with buddhism. i already know how i should repay them according to buddhism) even so its not enough for me to show my respect and my love to them. but what abt ur religion? then go and break Taj Mahal, the monument of love..

we also respect Allah and prophets, we are not building statue and bowing down.you cant say here we r not respecting them as u respect ur buddha as you are building idols and bowing down in front of the statue.

see man, the way of our respecting and urs are completely different then. how can u say that ours are bad comparing to urs? its all depending on how a person look.. you have to agree with that.. cause u said it so.

 

[I love Srilanka]

Only a person who is quite familiar with GOD concept can reject it and become an atheist.

Ok correct. to say God is not there, he should know the definition of God.



You can try to convince an athiest GOD is there. But you will not do this by saying, GOD is there because GOD says so or GOD is there because it is written in the book. That is my point. If you want to convince, talk in a language that they will listen. Go with logic. Saying this is true because it is written in the book is not logic.

I don't fully agree with you.whatever is the source if it is logical, it can be said to convince someone.to convince some one abt God, sometime it requires highest intelligent information to put forward. currently we can say only science is the highest authentic source to depend on. but now problem is human is bound to make mistake, something right today and wrong by tomorrow, and also we could see manytimes science take U turn. so we fear the logic that put forward today based on the current science, tomorrow may not be correct, so that is the only reason we sometime depends on God's revelation which is so far exactly proved to be correct with the established scientific facts.so we expect even the balance(almost 20%) which has not yet been established by science will be established soon inshallah.for eg.death after life, heaven,hell,GOD etc. science is not eliminating God,but eliminating the model of Gods.
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).
So my point is there is no problem in putting forward anything as long as it is logical and convince some one,regardless of the source. if some one just not taking the replies since it was provided from quran, it does only show that the person suffers from ego.


Did not find any proof there. It is again bunch of things about quran.
From the first video of ZakirNaik I watched, I learned that he is a highly irrational, hypocrite. So reading him is a waste of time in my opinion.

Ok it is your opinion. but my opinion is opposite. there are many well learned people and religious leaders who lost their debate with dr.zakir naik.I hope you are not bigger than that well learned people and scholars so I don't bother much..as you say there are many keep calling him as irrational, hypocrite,but no one is dare to call him and have debate and defeat him. I can imagine their intention.


[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]One GOD - Concept was already there (Christianity, Judaism,etc)
Angels - Concept was already there (Christianity, Judaism,etc)
Religious Scriptures - Not a concept--------------It is a concept,Four revelations of Allah (swt) are mentioned by name in the Qur’an: the Taurah, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an.

Taurah, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Moosa (a. s.) i.e. Moses (pbuh).
Zaboor, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Dawood (a.s.) i.e. David (pbuh).
Injeel, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Isa (A.S.) ie. Jesus (pbuh).
‘Al-Qur’an’, the last and final Wahi i.e. revelation given to the last and final Messenger Muhammad (pbuh).


Prophets - There were many prophets before Muhammad's time. Again a pre existing concept.
Day of judgment - Concept was already there(Christianity)
Predestination - existing concept

So you can see that non of these are original concepts. It is safe to assume Muhammad maybe copied them from already existing religions and modified accordingly.

1st of all Islam is a not a new religion which came in to existence 1400 years ago, Islam is there since the first man set foot on this earth so God's original concept is same and other thing to say it was copied from current bible(corrupted Injeel),then why you don't wonder Quran only copied only the correct and logical parts and not the errors which is existing in the bible.mm!!I hope you have lake of knowledge in this and never thought you will have same doubt as Christians Quote illogically in order to malign islam and misguide the people.anyway I feel it is appropriate to have discussion in a seperate thread with regard to this, you can see my new thread for answers in detail.

 

[I love Srilanka]

Go ahead.. we are not idol worshippers.. I'm not speaking for idol worshipers here but i have to say this. How can you say Worshiping idol is wrong? dont tell me cauze it is written in your book... I remember once a guy here explained why idols, images and Bo trees are used in buddhism. I think ancient glory him self. It was clearly explained there so i'm not gonna do it again..

Lot of confusion you are making here.You are telling you are not speaking for idol worshipers at the same time, you don't want to say idol worship is wrong.you told it is respect, now you are telling worshiping...don't contradict your self...i dont know the explanation of any guy,even if provided you r not going to justify it.to tell idol worship is wrong i dont need to use our book, it is a common sense, i hope u have that.


doen not make any sense to my tikiri mole.. then can you explain how that super power came to exist? (without any scriptures please) then we can discuss about further matters.

You don't know the definition of God.if you know this you will not be asking this.best definition which i can give you is God is the Eternal, Absolute. "He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. if God start and end same like we human being have, then he cant be God..this question is as though you are asking to Mr. John, You gave the birth to girl or boy baby..My answer is Mr.John cant give birth to baby 1st of all, coz this character is not attributed to him as he is male..
If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to you or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? of course reply will be creator or producer. the planet couldn't have come naturally and joined together to facilitate the human to live in the world or the PC which u r using now, motherboard or harddrive or processor couldn't have come flying from all over the world and fixed it self.for everything there is a producer,this is simple, need not think too much, more than this to think God has not given power coz human is restricted with some limited knowledge....further we have Quran in order to prove the God's existence which you don't want u said.


I will give u a simple example according to ur own logic
1. I'm a non believer. cause god wanted me to be like that. therefore he created me as a non believer..
2. You try to make me a believer..
3. 2 goes against 1
4. you work against god
5. Therefore you go to hell (messing with god's will)

(this is for the readers to understand)but you can call this illogical or non rational or what ever bullshit u want...


Your Logic won't be correct here, have you forgotten the fact that you are discussing with a believer? it is our belief that we have to pass the message to non believers, moreover we are instructed that every human were born as believer ,only because of they were born to non believer parents they practice as non believer.this you will not accept because this is our belief, so this example is not appropriate for us.


this proves that u argue without knowing facts. man!! words have different meanings. first try to understand that.. pls nxt time speak of what u know. that is the reason why ancient glory kicks ur ass so far up in the sky..

Do you think your replies are proving here something..just waste of your time..dont even imagine you won the debate just bec you are using Kick and ass words,I can understand your frustration. and I can imagine how much complications you r in to.


wow.. then why do you worship to kaaba or what ever you call that big black box which looks like made out of stone? then why do almost all the muslims have picture of kaaba? then why do almost all the muslims vehicles have a small idol of kaaba and hanging down from the mirror?

Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.
if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west.
the Muslims go to Masjid-e-Haram in Makkah, they perform tawaaf or circumambulation round the Kaaba. This act symbolizes the belief and worship of One God, since, just as every circle has one centre, so also there is only one Allah (swt) worthy of worship.At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

Other than this No one ever bow down to kaaba,neither Muslims worship the pictures which hanged on the vehicle or mirror.but where as Buddhist do worship in the temple in front of the statues as though statue is the main provider, and it is the way of praying although it is not in the scriptures and buddha not mentioned abt this.don't you feel shame on you guys to build a statue wherever you find a bo tree ?whats wrong with you guys.we don't do any idol worship in the mosques neither we have built any statues..

Man then why do we have idols and statues of our national heroes? of course if i can i will make a statue of my parents out of gold..
(and it has nothing to do with buddhism. i already know how i should repay them according to buddhism) even so its not enough for me to show my respect and my love to them. but what abt ur religion? then go and break Taj Mahal, the monument of love..

I have not said you, buddhism say you to build the statue, neither Islam said to do so.what I am trying to say is why to bow down in front of a statue, you guys concept is wrong here. you have to rectify your mistake and correct your people rather than justifying the same..I dont bother you building anything as long as you don't pray or bow down to that requesting something from that stone. Taj mahal not built by Allah or prophet, it was built by a human, as he is a muslim you cant blame whole muslims and the Islam.and more over no muslim never ever worshiped Tajmahal.just count how many Taj mahal was built and how many Statutes were built by you guys see the difference..your answers are so much silly..!!

see man, the way of our respecting and urs are completely different then. how can u say that ours are bad comparing to urs? its all depending on how a person look.. you have to agree with that.. cause u said it so.

respect is not a magic to say respecting way is different from us..you respect anyone OK, Im not saying wrong.what is that bowing down and begging to the statue , is that your way of respect..what do u feel if you bow down to a stone statue, you think it can see you, can feel good abt you, and it feels happy. I don't understand your idea Man..after all that is a stone! do you want to continue this?anyway,it is up to you guys, change your self.All the best!!

 

[AncientGlory]

Ok correct. to say God is not there, he should know the definition of God.

Well definitions differ from person to person and religion to religion. An atheist just rejects the concept of deities, regardless what the definition is.

I don't fully agree with you.whatever is the source if it is logical, it can be said to convince someone.

True. But your definition of logics might differ from mine, in a religious sense. For an example, following is not logic.
"The book says book is true therefor the book is true."

to convince some one abt God, sometime it requires highest intelligent information to put forward.

True.

currently we can say only science is the highest authentic source to depend on. but now problem is human is bound to make mistake, something right today and wrong by tomorrow, and also we could see manytimes science take U turn. so we fear the logic that put forward today based on the current science, tomorrow may not be correct,

True.

so that is the only reason we sometime depends on God's revelation which is so far exactly proved to be correct with the established scientific facts.

The only reason we depend on GOD's revelation is the fear of death, Nothing else. To the best of my knowledge GOD's revelation has never been proved by scientific facts.

so we expect even the balance(almost 20%) which has not yet been established by science will be established soon inshallah.

How did you come up with the number? So you are suggesting what is not yet established through science will be established through religion???? You are kidding right?

for eg.death after life, heaven,hell,GOD etc. science is not eliminating God,but eliminating the model of Gods.

Science does not eliminate anything. Humans do. With reasonable logic.

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God.

This is the second time some one quote those exact words here. But this is the last time I'm gonna reply to that.

First of all, the correct version of the quote is, "a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion".

Bacon eventually understood the harm in superstitious beliefs,

"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation: all which may be guides to an outward moral virtue... but superstition dismounts all these and erecteth an absolute monarchy in the minds of men: therefore atheism never did perturb states; for it makes men wary of themeselves... and we see the times inclined to atheism (as the time of Augustus Caesar) were civil times; but superstition hath been the confusion of many states, and bringeth in a new 'primum mobile.' that ravisheth all the spheres of government." -(Essay : Of Superstition)

Another one:

"Men have sought to make a world from their own conception and to draw from their own minds all the material which they employed, but if, instead of doing so, they had consulted experience and observation, they would have the facts and not opinions to reason about, and might have ultimately arrived at the knowledge of the laws which govern the material world."

I don't think a further explanation is needed. Bacon is a poor example.

So my point is there is no problem in putting forward anything as long as it is logical and convince some one,regardless of the source. if some one just not taking the replies since it was provided from quran, it does only show that the person suffers from ego.

My point is that there are no logic that can prove the existance of GOD. Let's open another thread and discuss logical explanation from quran to prove GOD's existance? We are kind of going off topic here. Of course I will accept logic regardless where it is coming from.

there are many well learned people and religious leaders who lost their debate with dr.zakir naik.

Give examples and sources.

I hope you are not bigger than that well learned people and scholars so I don't bother much..

Of course not. I don't know anything. But it does not change the facts.

as you say there are many keep calling him as irrational, hypocrite,but no one is dare to call him and have debate and defeat him. I can imagine their intention.

So no one challenging him, makes him a less hypocrite? Did you consider that maybe people think he is just not worth their time?

Anyways here's why I think he is a hypocrite. In the first video I watched he was talking about how mulsims should be given the freedom to practice their religions and customs in european countries. When a question asked, so do you let other religions to be practiced in Saudi Arabia, he said NO. Do you find that hypocritical or not?? That is my opinion on him, and its not gonna change.

Anyway, if we forget ZakirNaik and come back to our discussion, the link you provided is supposed to be a proof for an atheist of the existence of GOD. I did not find any proof there. So maybe you can explain. (Include it in the new thread you are gonna create)

1st of all Islam is a not a new religion which came in to existence 1400 years ago,

This is a definition you find in the book, not a fact. Islam in fact originated 1400 years ago. According to quran, there has always been one GOD and one true religion. But that religion emerged to world in 1400 years ago.
Now if we move out of the that box, to an outsider like me, a religion called Islam was born at the time of Muhammad with new names and practises. That is a fact. I'm not gonna debate this clear fact with you.

Islam is there since the first man set foot on this earth so God's original concept is same and other thing to say it was copied from current bible(corrupted Injeel),then why you don't wonder Quran only copied only the correct and logical parts and not the errors which is existing in the bible.

Well quran did copy almost all the erroneous concepts from bible. Starting from creationism. Ok this amazes me, I think I have missed something big. I found quran to be more erroneous than bible. And I'm yet to find logic in quran.

mm!!I hope you have lake of knowledge in this and never thought you will have same doubt as Christians Quote illogically in order to malign islam and misguide the people.

Maybe. But I assure you I do my homework before coming up here. I do not have any doubts by the way. I'm quite sure GOD does not exist. But I'm trying to understand why you think he does. (Who knows maybe you might have point in the end??)

If possible please point out a single illogical post I have given in this forum. PM it to me, we don't need to go off topic. I assure you I'm all about logic nothing else.

anyway I feel it is appropriate to have discussion in a seperate thread with regard to this, you can see my new thread for answers in detail.

Nice. I suggested a name for the thread in one of my responses above.

 

[AncientGlory]

respect is not a magic to say respecting way is different from us..you respect anyone OK, Im not saying wrong.what is that bowing down and begging to the statue , is that your way of respect..what do u feel if you bow down to a stone statue, you think it can see you, can feel good abt you, and it feels happy. I don't understand your idea Man..after all that is a stone! do you want to continue this?anyway,it is up to you guys, change your self.All the best!!

You are missing the point here. The way humans live, think and act is subjective. There is no absolute reference point for the behavior. So what we believe will change according to the culture, religion, Country, etc.
So one person's way of respect might not be the same as other person's. It is not fair to judge when you also have your own way of behaving.

That being said, there is a sense of morality built in to almost every social system. That is why laws everywhere are basically the same. That can be taken as a reference point. But there you need to respect each others beliefs as long as it is not a threat to the society.

 

[AncientGlory]

You don't know the definition of God.if you know this you will not be asking this.best definition which i can give you is God is the Eternal, Absolute. "He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him. if God start and end same like we human being have, then he cant be God..this question is as though you are asking to Mr. John, You gave the birth to girl or boy baby..My answer is Mr.John cant give birth to baby 1st of all, coz this character is not attributed to him as he is male..

Interesting explanation. Something similar was given to me once by a hindu. I told her, just substitute the word "Universe" for "GOD", you'll see that it will not alter the meaning of your paragraph. You are just talking about the universe, why give it another name?

 

[dilankandy]

Interesting explanation. Something similar was given to me once by a hindu. I told her, just substitute the word "Universe" for "GOD", you'll see that it will not alter the meaning of your paragraph. You are just talking about the universe, why give it another name?

Actually I Love is true.. Its just a waste of our time to argue with them..

 

[dilankandy]

...

yes.. I am sorry.. you are correct.. Its a complete waste of my time arguing with you.. you win.