Prophet Muhammad and child marriages

[Wal Bada]

Dear walbada

and as u told 16 is wrong, Minimum age for marriage in SL is 18.except muslims.refer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

Now where did I mention age of marriage? I said the age for consent for sexual relationships is 16. Age for marriage is of course 18.

 

[Wal Bada]

this is what i found in wikipedia.may be changed it recently and it will reduce it to 11-12 too.who knows... Sri Lanka: 18. However, Muslims can be excluded from this regulation because the Muslim Marriage and Divorce Act of 1951 states that a girl must be 12 years of age or have a Quazi's permission to marry before contracting into marriage. This is applicable only for Muslims in Sri Lanka.[32]

Still it does not prove marrying a six year old right. The age for consent in SL is 16. They tried to reduce it to 14, but due to pressure from public it was not imposed

yes coz it happened during that time.and she was matured enough.

What is your proof to say a 9 year old is mature enough to reproduce? She was playing with dolls FFS when she married the old man. Don't try to lie to us that a 9 yr old is mature enough for marriage. That is simply not possible.

also from start to now just everyone mentioning her age as 6,9,12. there is a doubt in her age as there is no any exact age mentioned in our history. anyway i could be 9 or 11 or even 16

Once again lying through your teeth. Here are few Hadiths for you to recollect what was Aisha's age really.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

.no one sure about this.i mentioned many reason why he married her after becoming a prophet.
* Aaisha (R.A),being so young,was able to tell those details to the muslims for more than 42 years.she had seen and learned so much from him.her young age was a great advantage in that respect.

Still doesn't make it a valid reason to hump a child.

* She absorbed vast religious knowledge from the Prophet (peace be upon him) – including memorizing the entire Qur'an – and was witness to much of the early history of Islam. She helped preserve the details of those events, as well as the details of the private and public life of Muhammad (peace be upon him), by narrating more than two thousand hadith.

Immaterial. Ananda thero did the same with Buddhism, but he was same age as Buddha, but outlived 40 years than Buddha. Muhammed could even done it with a compatriot.

* father of mother aysha abubakr(r.a) and prophet muhammed sallalahu alihi wasallam are close friends.so he married her to remove the misconception that two close friends consider as brothers and marrying a friends daughter consider as a sin.

Then why did he turn down a request by another person to marry his daughter? (can't remeber the name)

 

[Wal Bada]

I differ with you in this. see getting married is respectful than being involved in adultery activities. specially in this current world parents are suffering to raise their teenage children in decent way. parents are under so much of stress till they get married.if u keep on postponing their marriage, they may do anything , any time , it can give very much bad image to family and even to total generation as well.there are some occasion even parents committed suicide due to the their children's wrong doing, specially girls. among muslims and hindus community their culture is such that a girls wrong doing is so much serious than sinhalese community.that can be the reason for early marriage if actually their rate is more.

So postponing it until 18 will make them to sleep with every male / female they see? Don't be ridiculous. Any person who has the tendency for extra-marital affairs will engage in them despite begin married or not. If parents cannot bring up their children in the correct way that is their problem. Making them to marry when they are still children is not going to do any good other than serious harm. Don't try to fool your self. CHILD MARRIAGES ARE BAD UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

 

[I love Srilanka]

You are not clear. Are you saying marrying a child is excusable? Are you saying that nobody marries children before they reach puberty?

I'm clear.Repeatedly saying no body marry before the puberty.

Excellent. Now you agree that people do these things just because of their barbaric nature and they misuse the Islam name to justify it.

Islam doesn't mean that whatever its follower do.of course I heard abt some do, it is not only Muslims,bt everyone..again telling you it is not monopoly for muslims.




Why not? I'm not arguing about the morality of his actions by those days standards, I'm arguing about how those actions set a bad example for today's society. Being a prophet he should have known better.If you do not agree with that, we can argue, So again Why not?? It seems like after reading all these posts, you still do not understand the point I'm trying to make.

1st of all keep in mind,We still arguing on the assumption if prophet had married in 9 years ok.I have already told u this in start of the discussion as islamic scholar them self differ in this and not exactly proved to be which age.bt still I am arguing bec a girl can even get puberty at the age of 9.
See why God given puberty to anyone? it cant be given by God just without reason..if u dont trust God..then take the nature,naturally puberty happen as that girl is ready for sex and ready for everything.then why not naturally someone get puberty at the age of 18.if some one is ready only in that age.please don't just guess OK.if u still don't agree why naturally some one is getting puberty early than 18, Answer me with logic...

A person who is legally not an adult.

Your answer so silly, I never thought your answer, will be like this. legal is different from physical of the every individual OK.legal age is decided by Govt which is nothing to do with someone's puberty or adult age.see! nexttime if UNP Govt come to power they may change the legal adult age. so u mean to say as & when idiot politician or judge change the adult age, puberty or maturity of that person also happen accordingly..utter Nonsense!!!


Good. Now where you stand is clear. Your view is different of njsa. To be frank I find his view honest and moral, coz only a sick person can say having sex with a child is ok, disregard she has reached puberty or not. No offense but I find such people disgusting and mentally retarded.

To say sick person,it is not rape OK.only with permission of wife anyone can regardless of anything.I am again concretely saying that puberty is enough to get marry.


Read the following, Maybe you will find some sense in it.

Read this, this is what islam say about
THE BEGINNING OF SEXUAL LIFE

Sexual desire is aroused in human beings at the age of puberty. In Islamic legal definition, puberty (bulugh) is determined by one of the followings:

1. age: fifteen lunar years for boys and nine for girls;
2. internal changes:
In boys: The first nocturnal emission. Semen accumulates in the testicles from puberty onwards and more semen may be formed than the system can assimilate; when this happens, semen is expelled during the sleep. This is known as nocturnal emission and wet dream or ihtlam in Arabic. In girls: Menstruation. Right from their birth, the girls’ ovaries contains about 400,000 immature eggs; at puberty, the eggs start maturing, usually one ovum each month. If no egg is fertilized, the egg together with the lining of the womb is discarded in form of what is known as menstruation and monthly period or hayz in Arabic.
3. physical change
Growth of coarse hair on lower part of abdomen. Since sexual urge begins at puberty and as Islam says that sexual urge should be fulfilled only through marriage, therefore, it has allowed marriage as soon as the boy and the girl reach the age of puberty. In case of girls, it not only allows them to be married as soon as they become mature, but also recommends such marriage. It is based on such teachings that Islam discourages girls from postponing their marriage because of education; instead, it says that girls should get married and then continue their education if they wish to do so.

This is absolutely pure BS. They have put jesus in no.1 because it is a fact.

hahha!! really funny! So Jesus better than Buddha also...do u agree so??if yes,then if you are a buddhist you have to convert to Christianity immediately

No. Unlike some people, Hart was clearly capable of making up his mind and his views were clearly not biased on teachings he was taught from 6 years of age. He was a free thinker, unlike Muslims.

that is why he told the truth unlike others..so your above reply is totally contradicting..


Because Hart believes Muhammad was more influential. Are you trying to make a point here? If so, it is not clear to me.


True. And some people influence by doing evil, Ex:Hitler. So how influential a person is not a measure of his morality.

It is clearly known prophet mohd was not an evil as Hitler who is record holder of murderer ever.then why u doubt it. this is what he mentioned abt for Hart's selection read it http://www.amaana.org/ismailim.html


But I see bad deeds. That is why I want to clarify it.

I don't see it is as clarification, but allegation. but still you are welcome brother, we are muslim we have faith in our religion.Hope you have no other points than this about prophet Mohammed as all have in d world.

 

[I love Srilanka]

Now where did I mention age of marriage? I said the age for consent for sexual relationships is 16. Age for marriage is of course 18.

Wal,

OK.I don't understand..is that mean Can anyone do sex before the marriage.

 

[Wal Bada]

Wal,

OK.I don't understand..is that mean Can anyone do sex before the marriage.

I also find it amusing, and as a thing that should not be promoted. Either you should raise the age of consent to 18 or reduce the age of marriage to 16. But not all will agree with the moral I have. There are things called "Human rights"

 

[I love Srilanka]

So postponing it until 18 will make them to sleep with every male / female they see? Don't be ridiculous. Any person who has the tendency for extra-marital affairs will engage in them despite begin married or not. If parents cannot bring up their children in the correct way that is their problem. Making them to marry when they are still children is not going to do any good other than serious harm. Don't try to fool your self. CHILD MARRIAGES ARE BAD UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

In this modern world, it is of course true that parents cannot bring up their children in right way.obviously you can see around what is happening in the current world. whatever the serious harm u mean , it is still good that make them married at earliest after the puberty. rather than harming them self and harm the whole society.

 

[I love Srilanka]

I also find it amusing, and as a thing that should not be promoted. Either you should raise the age of consent to 18 or reduce the age of marriage to 16. But not all will agree with the moral I have. There are things called "Human rights"

I agree.this all imported norms from western countries where they first will have sex & get married. of course should not be promoted in our country.

 

[Wal Bada]

In this modern world, it is of course true that parents cannot bring up their children in right way.obviously you can see around what is happening in the current world. whatever the serious harm u mean , it is still good that make them married at earliest after the puberty. rather than harming them self and harm the whole society.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's after puberty, nit before it. It basically means around 18 for females and 20 for males.

 

[I love Srilanka]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's after puberty, nit before it. It basically means around 18 for females and 20 for males.

If 18 and 20 is fixed, then a girl or man who want to have sex before that how will get it?..don't u feel it will lead to adultery? and spoil the community aswell...this is what happening presently.majority of the school pupils have boy or girl friends, hearing abt many sex scandals. this would have been avoided isn't it if they could have married as they start to get desire.

 

[Wal Bada]

If 18 and 20 is fixed, then a girl or man who want to have sex before that how will get it?..don't u feel it will lead to adultery? and spoil the community aswell...this is what happening presently.majority of the school pupils have boy or girl friends, hearing abt many sex scandals. this would have been avoided isn't it if they could have married as they start to get desire.

Adultery or willful sex is not necessarily bad. It may be bad in Islam, but everybody is not a Muslim. So non - Muslims should be allowed to practice what they want. 18 and 20 is not "fixed" values, but rather "average" values. Your last part will lead to disaster. Sex scandals are many times less damaging than child abuse or child marriages. It's risk vs benefit. Marrying in early 20s have many benefits over the risk of pre-marital sex. So I am for the current practice

 

[I love Srilanka]

Adultery or willful sex is not necessarily bad. It may be bad in Islam, but everybody is not a Muslim. So non - Muslims should be allowed to practice what they want. 18 and 20 is not "fixed" values, but rather "average" values. Your last part will lead to disaster. Sex scandals are many times less damaging than child abuse or child marriages. It's risk vs benefit. Marrying in early 20s have many benefits over the risk of pre-marital sex. So I am for the current practice

I'm So much wondered after seeing your reply.you do agree adultery before marriage.i feel so disgusted abt you people.I have no words to tell, shame on people who do the illegal sex. it is a common sense that doing sex with somebody other than wife is bad. even a lay man knows this..You people are so cheap?? I never thought this extent...

I am sorry I dont think early marriage is risk than of having sex before the marriage. I Don't think even Buddha , Jesus never allowed this.Like islam say.

 

[Wal Bada]

I'm So much wondered after seeing your reply.you do agree adultery before marriage.i feel so disgusted abt you people.I have no words to tell, shame on people who do the illegal sex. it is a common sense that doing sex with somebody other than wife is bad. even a lay man knows this..You people are so cheap?? I never thought this extent...

I am sorry I dont think early marriage is risk than of having sex before the marriage. I Don't think even Buddha , Jesus never allowed this.Like islam say.

What you are posting is the typical Muslin thinking. So sex between lovers is illegal? What on earth is the fairness of it? Whether somebody wants sex or not is their will. The religions are there to guide you for a better behavior but not for imposing barriers. Islam does it that is why there are so many problems. Buddha only said extra-marital sex is bad. He never banned it. He said prostitution is bad. But he never told to stone all the prostitutes. It's up to individual to decide what is good or bad for him / her.

In ancient India there was a marriage called "Gaandharwa Marriage". The marriage was established by having sex. According to you even this kind of marriage is bad, because you should be married to have sex!

I am not promoting extra-marital or pre-marital sex, but it is more due to adverse effects on sexual heath rather than on moral grounds.

 

[I love Srilanka]

What you are posting is the typical Muslin thinking. So sex between lovers is illegal? What on earth is the fairness of it? Whether somebody wants sex or not is their will. The religions are there to guide you for a better behavior but not for imposing barriers. Islam does it that is why there are so many problems. Buddha only said extra-marital sex is bad. He never banned it. He said prostitution is bad. But he never told to stone all the prostitutes. It's up to individual to decide what is good or bad for him / her.

In ancient India there was a marriage called "Gaandharwa Marriage". The marriage was established by having sex. According to you even this kind of marriage is bad, because you should be married to have sex!

I am not promoting extra-marital or pre-marital sex, but it is more due to adverse effects on sexual heath rather than on moral grounds.

I like to be typical Muslim rather than being same as you do. So far I have seen Only dogs,pigs do the samething. you guys are cheaper than Animal also??really buddha never mentioned this??...I cant even trust you..anyway I will check it up with other Buddhist guys as well.

 

[Wal Bada]

I like to be typical Muslim rather than being same as you do. So far I have seen Only dogs,pigs do the samething. you guys are cheaper than Animal also??really buddha never mentioned this??...I cant even trust you..anyway I will check it up with other Buddhist guys as well.

Sorry, you look ridiculous. You can tolerate a child molester but cannot stand up to two grown adults having sex i with their free will knowing its consequences. And you call that illegal sex!. Illegal sex is what is done for money, or prostitution. Dogs, Pigs don't do adulteration at all. There are no pedophiles among them as well. There's no point in discussing with a narrow minded person like you. I personally don't appreciate extra - marital sex. But I am against banning that because Muslims are not the owners of the human kind

 

[Rux]

There is no justification for Muhammad's actions.

He was a pedophile rapist. All you Muslims denying this, I'm not surprised really since you'd rather live a lie than see your religion tarnished.

Or maybe paedophilia is now alright in Islam too? Since Muhammad did it? Fits the Muslim way of thinking perfectly in my opinion.

Rape is already allowed so its only a matter of time really.

 

[ex-muslim Ahmed]

Sorry, you look ridiculous. You can tolerate a child molester but cannot stand up to two grown adults having sex i with their free will knowing its consequences. And you call that illegal sex!.

yeah humping 9 year old who was playing with dolls is OK!

beheading 900 innocent men women children..oh its oK..

Guess who is the real Animal(s) in this forum

 

[AncientGlory]

I'm only gonna comment on some of the things, coz this is getting tiresome, and we are going in circles.

Your answer so silly, I never thought your answer, will be like this. legal is different from physical of the every individual OK.legal age is decided by Govt which is nothing to do with someone's puberty or adult age.see! nexttime if UNP Govt come to power they may change the legal adult age. so u mean to say as & when idiot politician or judge change the adult age, puberty or maturity of that person also happen accordingly..utter Nonsense!!!

You are so smart that you just did not realize you contradicted yourself. Without just babbling useless words, take a little time to think what something means.

There is a reason for modern Governments to define a legal age for an adult. That is because they consider them to be mentally capable of taking a decision without the help of an adult at a certain age. And yes this age is relative to the time, politics. This goes for reproduction also. Most of the sane people in the world have agreed that a person reach the physical and mental capacity of reproduction at a certain age, they define this age as adulthood and that is why they have legislated laws to minimize marriages before a certain age. Hence having sex with a girl who has not reached that age with or without her consent is rape.

Now you say when the politics change, the laws will change. So you are saying that since the laws are not absolute, i.e since they change over time, my response is utter nonsense.

Now here's how you contradict yourself.

As I told earlier, Mayb earlier time physical nature of the girls would have been far better than now. only according to the todays law it is prohibited.

so you accept modern time custom different from those time.

More than once you state that laws,customs are relative and can change with time. In fact that is how you defend your prophets action of marrying a child of age 6. You say by those days laws it was ok. And now you say since laws change, over time my response is utter nonsense.

Congrats by contradicting yourself you just showed how smart you are.. (Claps)

Laws do change over time. That is why I'm talking about laws in today's world. And they are the frame for defining an adult. At least that is what sane people believe. An adult is physically+mentally adult in my( and those people who make laws) definition.

.if u still don't agree why naturally some one is getting puberty early than 18, Answer me with logic...

Puberty and adulthood are two things. Reaching puberty does not mean she reached adulthood. i.e she is no longer a child. I never said the age someone reach puberty is 18.

To say sick person,it is not rape OK.only with permission of wife anyone can regardless of anything.I am again concretely saying that puberty is enough to get marry.

Having sex with a child with or without her consent is sick.

Read this, this is what islam say about
THE BEGINNING OF SEXUAL LIFE

Sexual desire is aroused in human beings at the age of puberty. In Islamic legal definition, puberty (bulugh) is determined by one of the followings:

1. age: fifteen lunar years for boys and nine for girls;
2. internal changes:
In boys: The first nocturnal emission. Semen accumulates in the testicles from puberty onwards and more semen may be formed than the system can assimilate; when this happens, semen is expelled during the sleep. This is known as nocturnal emission and wet dream or ihtlam in Arabic. In girls: Menstruation. Right from their birth, the girls’ ovaries contains about 400,000 immature eggs; at puberty, the eggs start maturing, usually one ovum each month. If no egg is fertilized, the egg together with the lining of the womb is discarded in form of what is known as menstruation and monthly period or hayz in Arabic.
3. physical change
Growth of coarse hair on lower part of abdomen. Since sexual urge begins at puberty and as Islam says that sexual urge should be fulfilled only through marriage, therefore, it has allowed marriage as soon as the boy and the girl reach the age of puberty. In case of girls, it not only allows them to be married as soon as they become mature, but also recommends such marriage. It is based on such teachings that Islam discourages girls from postponing their marriage because of education; instead, it says that girls should get married and then continue their education if they wish to do so.

Thank you very much for bringing this up. Another good example to say why Islam is pure nonsense and full of contradictions.

I must congratulate you again here, not only you contradicted yourself, but you contradicted prophet Muhammad and thereby quran also with this.

(1) According to this (In Islamic legal definition, puberty (bulugh) is determined by one of the followings)
So 'one of the followings' are given in 3 cases. Means case 1 or case 2 or case 3(see above). So according to this, a girl is considered to have reached puberty when she reach age 9(case 1) or when she go through internal changes(case 2) or when she go through physical changes(case 3). Disregard she gets her first menstruation or not if she has reached age 9, she is considered to have reached puberty(Adult in Islamic sense). This is completely new to me. Until now I thought at least they wait until her body begins the puberty process. But no, even if it is not the case she is considered(What a sick thing to do) to have reached puberty at the age of 9.

(2) This is one of your posts.

I'm clear.Repeatedly saying no body marry before the puberty.

Muhammad married Aisha at the age of 6. She had not reached any of the given conditions.So by that time, she had not reached puberty according to the above Islam laws. It is clear that Muhammad himself had disobeyed Islamic laws, according to you. Or, if Muhammad himself is the law, contradicted himself or quran.

According to what you have REPEATEDLY said(Marrying before puberty is wrong), what Muhammad did(Married Aisha before puberty) was wrong.

I'm eagerly waiting for your answer. Rest of the stuff is not important and will only make my reply longer.

Read this, this is what islam say about

Thanks I read it, and now clearly understand Islam is all about contradictions and sick ideas(I mean considering a girl who is not even menstruating an adult and having sex with her?? That is sick).

 

[AncientGlory]

Read this, this is what islam say about
THE BEGINNING OF SEXUAL LIFE

Sexual desire is aroused in human beings at the age of puberty. In Islamic legal definition, puberty (bulugh) is determined by one of the followings:

1. age: fifteen lunar years for boys and nine for girls;
2. internal changes:
In boys: The first nocturnal emission. Semen accumulates in the testicles from puberty onwards and more semen may be formed than the system can assimilate; when this happens, semen is expelled during the sleep. This is known as nocturnal emission and wet dream or ihtlam in Arabic. In girls: Menstruation. Right from their birth, the girls’ ovaries contains about 400,000 immature eggs; at puberty, the eggs start maturing, usually one ovum each month. If no egg is fertilized, the egg together with the lining of the womb is discarded in form of what is known as menstruation and monthly period or hayz in Arabic.
3. physical change
Growth of coarse hair on lower part of abdomen. Since sexual urge begins at puberty and as Islam says that sexual urge should be fulfilled only through marriage, therefore, it has allowed marriage as soon as the boy and the girl reach the age of puberty. In case of girls, it not only allows them to be married as soon as they become mature, but also recommends such marriage. It is based on such teachings that Islam discourages girls from postponing their marriage because of education; instead, it says that girls should get married and then continue their education if they wish to do so.

I'm sorry guys but this is really important. That is why I wanted to bring this up in a separate post.

According to this in Islam one of the criteria for determining whether a girl has reached puberty or not is her age.(Age 9). Not the physical changes, or whatever.

Anyone looking for further reading, this is the link.

http://www.al-islam.org/m_morals/chap3.htm

 

[AncientGlory]

Few other questions, which are not relevant to the thread.

What is a hadith?

Do you believe/accept what is written in hadiths?

It is said the collection of hadiths by Sahib Bhukari is considered to be the most authentic book after Quran. Is this true??