Beginning of the Universe ?

Y2K

Member
Jun 11, 2007
11,007
165
0
In your heart
Beginning of the Universe ?

The biggest question .................ever

do you Believe in an intelligent design ? or is it completely a natural thing .......... like evolution ? Islam & Christian have the answer "this world is a creation of God "

Something

This is a follow-up to Was There Ever Nothing?

If there ever was Absolutely Nothing, there would still be Absolutely Nothing today. Since there is something (you, for example), that means that Absolutely Nothing never existed. If it ever did, you wouldn't be here reading this right now. Absolutely Nothing would still be here.

So there was never a time when Absolutely Nothing existed. Therefore, there has always been something. But what? If we go back to the very beginning, what was the Something that must have existed? Was it more than one Something, or just one? And what was it like, judging by what exists today?

Let's explore the quantity issue first. Let's call into mind again our large, pitch-black, sealed-off room. Imagine that there are ten tennis balls inside the room. As far back in time as we can go, there was only this: ten tennis balls.

What happens next? Let's say we wait an entire year. What's in the room? Still just ten tennis balls, right? Because there is no other force in existence. And we know that ten ordinary tennis balls -- no matter how much time passes -- cannot spawn new ones. Or anything else for that matter.

Okay, what if there were six tennis balls in the room to begin with? Would that change the situation? No, not really. Alright then, what if there were a million tennis balls? Still no change. All we've got in the room is tennis balls, no matter how many there are.

What we find out is that quantity is not an issue. If we go back to the very beginning of all things, the quantity of the Something that must have existed is not what's important. Or is it?

Remove the tennis balls. Now inside the room is a chicken. Now we wait a year. What's inside the room? Just one chicken, right? But what if we started out with one hen and one rooster in the room? Now we wait a year, what do we have? A bunch more chickens!

So quantity is important, IF inside the room are at least two things that can produce a third thing. Hen + rooster = baby chick. But quantity is not important if we're talking about at least two things that cannot produce a third thing. Tennis ball + football = nothing.

So the issue isn't quantity so much as quality. What qualities does the Something possess? Can it bring other things into existence?

Let's go back to our chickens, but let's get very exact, because such would be the case in the very, very beginning. We have a hen and a rooster in the room. They are in different parts of the room, suspended in nothingness. Will they produce other chickens?

No. Why? Because there's no environment to work in. There's nothing in the room except the hen and the rooster. No air to breathe or fly in, no ground to walk on, no sustenance for them to live on. They can't eat, walk, fly or breathe. Their environment is complete nothingness.

So chickens are out. Chickens cannot exist or reproduce without some sort of environment. With an environment, they could spawn other chickens. And with an environment affecting them, maybe they could -- though it seems absurd -- change into a different kind of chicken over time. Something along the lines of an otter or a giraffe.

So we've got a room with no environment. Therefore, we need Something that can exist without an environment. Something that doesn't need air, food or water to exist. That disqualifies every current living thing on this earth.

So, then, what about non-living things? They don't need an environment, that's true. But then we're in the same predicament we were in with the tennis balls. Non-living matter doesn't produce anything. Let's say, instead of ten tennis balls, you had a trillion molecules of hydrogen. Then what happens? Over time, you still have a trillion molecules of hydrogen, nothing more.

While we're talking about non-living matter, let's also consider what it takes for that to exist. Ever heard of the Supercollider? Years ago the government embarked on an experiment to create matter. The Supercollider was miles and miles of underground tunnel through which atoms would travel at supersonic speeds and then smash into each other, in order to create a tiny particle. All that for the tiniest, most microscopic bit of matter.

What does that tell us? That our illustration of the ten tennis balls is not nearly as easy as it sounds. It would take an AMAZING amount of energy just to produce one tennis ball out of nothing. And nothing is all we have. The room has absolutely nothing in it.

So here's where we are. The Something that existed at the beginning must be able to exist without depending on anything else. It must be totally and fully self-sufficient. For It was alone at the very beginning. And It needed no environment within which to exist.

Second, the Something that existed at the very beginning must have the ability to produce something other than Itself. For, if It could not, then that Something would be all that exists today. But Something Else exists today. You, for example.

Third, to produce Something Else -- out of nothing -- requires an incredible amount of power. So the Something must have great power at its disposal. If it takes us miles and miles of corridor and the most energy we can harness, just to produce the tiniest particle, how much power would it take to produce the matter in the universe?

Let's go back to our room. Let's say we have a very special tennis ball inside the room. It can produce other tennis balls. It has that much power and energy. And It is completely self-sufficient, needing nothing else to exist, for It is all there is. It, this one tennis ball, is the Eternal Something.

Let's say the tennis ball produces another tennis ball. Which of the two will be greater, say, with respect to TIME? Ball #1. It is the Eternal Something. It has always existed. Ball #2, however, came into existence when produced by Ball #1. So one ball is finite with regard to time, the other infinite.

Which of the two will be greater with regard to POWER? Again, Ball #1. It has the ability to produce Ball #2 out of nothing -- which also means it has the ability to unproduce (destroy) Ball #2. So Ball #1 has far more power than Ball #2. In fact, at all times, Ball #2 must depend on Ball #1 for its very existence.

But, you say, what if Ball #1 shared some of its power with Ball #2 -- enough power to destroy Ball #1? Then Ball #2 would be greater, for Ball #1 would cease to be, right?

There's a problem with this. If Ball #1 shared some of its power with Ball #2, it would still be Ball #1's power. The question then becomes: could Ball #1 use its own power to destroy itself? No. First of all, to use its power, Ball #1 has to exist.

Second of all, Ball #1 is so powerful that anything that can possibly be done, can be done by Ball #1. But it is not possible for Ball #1 to cease to be, therefore it cannot accomplish this.

Ball #1 cannot be unproduced, for Ball #1 was never produced in the first place. Ball #1 has always existed. It is the Eternal Something. As such, it is existence. It is life, infinite life. For Ball #1 to be destroyed, there would need to be something greater. But nothing is greater than Ball #1, nor ever could be. It exists without need of anything else. It therefore cannot be changed by any external forces. It can have no end, for It has no beginning. It is the way it is and that cannot change. It cannot cease to be, for BEING is its very nature. In that sense, it is untouchable.

What we see is this: the Something at the very beginning will always be greater than the Something Else it produces. The Something exists on its own. Something Else, however, needs Something to exist. Therefore, Something Else has needs. It is therefore inferior to Something, and will always be so, for the Eternal Something has no need of another.

The Something might be able to produce Something Else that is like It in some ways, but -- no matter what -- Something Else will always be unlike It in other ways. The Eternal Something will always be greater with respect to time and power. Thus, the Eternal Something cannot produce an exact equal to Itself. It alone has always existed. It alone can exist independent of another.
 
Last edited:

Y2K

Member
Jun 11, 2007
11,007
165
0
In your heart
The Origin of the World

'There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our thoughts.'(Bertrand Russell)

There are three schools of thought regarding the origin of the world. The first school of thought claims that this world came into existence by nature and that nature is not an intelligent force. However, nature works no its own accord and goes on changing.

The second school of thought says that the world was created by an almighty God who is responsible for everything.

The third school of thought says that the beginning of this world and of life is inconceivable since they have neither beginning nor end. Buddhism is in accordance with this third school of thought. Bertrand Russell supports this school of thought by saying, 'There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our thoughts.'

Modern science says that some millions of years ago, the newly cooled earth was lifeless and that life originated in the ocean. Buddhism never claimed that the world, sun, moon, stars, wind, water, days and nights were created by a powerful god or by a Buddha. Buddhists believe that the world was not created once upon a time, but that the world has been created millions of times every second and will continue to do so by itself and will break away by itself. According to Buddhism, world systems always appear and disappear in the universe.

H.G. Wells, in A Short History of the World, says 'It is universally recognized that the universe in which we live, has to all appearance, existed for an enormous period of time and possibly for endless time. But that the universe in which we live, has existed only for six or seven thousand years may be regarded as an altogether exploded idea. No life seems to have happened suddenly upon earth.'

The efforts made by many religions to explain the beginning and the end of the universe are indeed ill-conceived. The position of religions which propound the view that the universe was created by god in an exactly fixed year, has become a difficult one to maintain in the light of modern and scientific knowledge.

Today scientists, historians, astronomers, biologists, botanists, anthropologists and great thinkers have all contributed vast new knowledge about the origin of the world. This latest discovery and knowledge is not at all contradictory to the Teachings of the Buddha. Bertrand Russell again says that he respects the Buddha for not making false statements like others who committed themselves regarding the origin of the world.

The speculative explanations of the origin of the universe that are presented by various religions are not acceptable to the modern scientists and intellectuals. Even the commentaries of the Buddhist Scriptures, written by certain Buddhist writers, cannot be challenged by scientific thinking in regard to this question. The Buddha did not waste His time on this issue. The reason for His silence was that this issue has no religious value for gaining spiritual wisdom. The explanation of the origin of the universe is not the concern of religion. Such theorizing is not necessary for living a righteous way of life and for shaping our future life. However, if one insists on studying this subject, then one must investigate the sciences, astronomy, geology, biology and anthropology. These sciences can offer more reliable and tested information on this subject than can be supplied by any religion. The purpose of a religion is to cultivate the life here in this world and hereafter until liberation is gained.

In the eyes of the Buddha, the world is nothing but Samsara -- the cycle of repeated births and deaths. To Him, the beginning of the world and the end of the world is within this Samsara. Since elements and energies are relative and inter-dependent, it is meaningless to single out anything as the beginning. Whatever speculation we make regarding the origin of the world, there is no absolute truth in our notion.

'Infinite is the sky, infinite is the number of beings,
Infinite are the worlds in the vast universe,
Infinite in wisdom the Buddha teaches these,
Infinite are the virtues of Him who teaches these.' - (Sri Ramachandra)

One day a man called Malunkyaputta approached the Master and demanded that He explain the origin of the Universe to him. He even threatened to cease to be His follow if the Buddha's answer was not satisfactory. The Buddha calmly retorted that it was of no consequence to Him whether or not Malunkyaputta followed Him, because the Truth did not need anyone's support. Then the Buddha said that He would not go into a discussion of the origin of the Universe. To Him, gaining knowledge about such matters was a waste of time because a man's task was to liberate himself from the present, not the past or the future. To illustrate this, the Enlightened One related the parable of a man who was shot by a poisoned arrow. This foolish man refused to have the arrow removed until he found out all about the person who shot the arrow. By the time his attendants discovered these unnecessary details, the man was dead. Similarly, our immediate task is to attain Nibbana, not to worry about our beginnings.
 

Y2K

Member
Jun 11, 2007
11,007
165
0
In your heart
Every evil never doing
and in wholesomeness increasing
and one's heart well-purifying:
this is the Buddhas' Sasana

(Dhammapada, 183)
 

kalyanamithra

Well-known member
  • May 12, 2008
    1,289
    26
    48
    Y2K said:
    Every evil never doing
    and in wholesomeness increasing
    and one's heart well-purifying:
    this is the Buddhas' Sasana

    (Dhammapada, 183)
    Pinwath mithura,

    Bohoma pin :)

    Please compare the English translation with the following...
    Aim of a Smmasambuddha is disclosing the Four Noble Truths; nothing else..

    Dhammapadapali-Buddhavaggo-183.jpg


    All other interpretations arise because of people trying to match Buddhism with 'lay (non-Buddhist) aspirations'...
    I used the qualifier 'non-Buddhist' because the ultimate goal the Buddhists (lay and clergy) is Nibbana...
    See how far away many 'Buddhists' are from Dhamma...

    Theruwan saranai!
     
    Last edited:

    kalyanamithra

    Well-known member
  • May 12, 2008
    1,289
    26
    48
    Bhagya_cbk said:
    Pls dnt question other religons ...

    :yes::yes::yes:
    Yes, criticizing other religions only hinder the Buddhists in their practicing Dhamma... Most criticisms I've seen do not give an insight into life; they trigger nothing but annoyance and anger...
    It's good if we can refrain from this practice...

    Theruwan saranai!
     

    Y2K

    Member
    Jun 11, 2007
    11,007
    165
    0
    In your heart
    kalyanamithra said:
    Pinwath mithura,

    Bohoma pin :)

    Please compare the English translation with the following...
    Aim of a Smmasambuddha is disclosing the Four Noble Truths; nothing else..

    Dhammapadapali-Buddhavaggo-183.jpg


    All other interpretations arise because of people trying to match Buddhism with 'lay (non-Buddhist) aspirations'...
    I used the qualifier 'non-Buddhist' because the ultimate goal the Buddhists (lay and clergy) is Nibbana...
    See how far away many 'Buddhists' are from Dhamma...

    Theruwan saranai!

    You are dead right my friend ......... Bhuddist people talk very high about their religion but they dont follow it ........................ most of the religion also same they dont know wht they tought
     

    nj542

    Member
    Jul 25, 2007
    3,747
    28
    0
    Y2K said:
    You are dead right my friend ......... Bhuddist people talk very high about their religion but they dont follow it ........................ most of the religion also same they dont know wht they tought

    buddism is not a religion...it's a doctrine........
     

    nj542

    Member
    Jul 25, 2007
    3,747
    28
    0
    Y2K said:
    I have never seen a scripture like holy Quran ................ The Beginnig explain there

    most established theory of bigging of the universe is the Big Bang theory.......
    according to the science we know.......

    but then we can still question whr did the power for that initial explosion......the Big Bang.. came from...........
    one may say it's god........

    but then so called god is merely power...or some sort of energy.......isn't it?????
     

    kalyanamithra

    Well-known member
  • May 12, 2008
    1,289
    26
    48
    Pinwath mithura,

    Think I should add what Buddhism mentions about this...

    Beginning of the universe is not a concern of Buddhism - because it's cyclic process... It get created, expands (sanwatta kalpa); collapses (vivatta kalpa); gets destroyed... get created again... (This is mentioned as background information in Agganna Sutta of Digha Nikaya)

    The problem is samsaraic existence of beings does not end at the point of disctruction... The beings spend the period in Abhassara brahma loka (they are beings of light...) and comes back to the worlds (when they are formed; and beings having forms can live in these worlds)...

    That's why samsaraic existence is so perilous... It does not end automatically... That's why Buddhists try to end it by following the Noble Eightfold Path...

    Theruwan saranai!
     
    Last edited:

    Y2K

    Member
    Jun 11, 2007
    11,007
    165
    0
    In your heart
    nj542 said:
    most established theory of bigging of the universe is the Big Bang theory.......
    according to the science we know.......

    but then we can still question whr did the power for that initial explosion......the Big Bang.. came from...........
    one may say it's god........

    but then so called god is merely power...or some sort of energy.......isn't it?????


    Yes True .......................... All mighty All powerful God
     

    Y2K

    Member
    Jun 11, 2007
    11,007
    165
    0
    In your heart
    nj542 said:
    buddism is not a religion...it's a doctrine........


    Yes you are right ............... its a Doctrine ................. I would rather prefer if we use Philosophy (It's a Philosophy) I use the most simple term region (which means the path of Salvation )