Dhamma Chakka

[kalyanamithra]

Dear friends,

Thought to post this because of a query a friend made about the Dhamma Chakka symbols in my profile picture; signature, etc.
[My profile picture was excerpted from an image on: http://www.gautamabuddha.org]

Although it's not fully relevant to Dhamma; I hope posting this would make us think more about it... Please note this is a personal view I have; and its wrong by common acceptance. Please do not consider this as a Dhamma discussion...

How blindly we have started to use a Dhamma chakka that cannot be rolled? I too was blind to this fact until few months ago...

We know the part in Dhammacakkappavattana sutta

“Etam Bhagavatā Bārānasiyam Isipatane Migadāye anuttaram Dhammacakkam pavattitam, appativattiyam samanena vā brāhmanena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmin'ti” - "The incomparable wheel of Dhamma has been set to roll by the Blessed One… in a way that it cannot be turned back by any recluse, Brahmin, Deva, Mara, Brahma, or anyone in the world."

So a Chakka that symbolizes Dhamma should be a "wheel" which can be rolled..

See how it is represented in the Ashoka pillars erected at a time Rahathan wahanses were there to advise the Emperor Ashoka (he was a Buddhist at the time; so it's not reasonable to assume that the symbol is related to Hinduism or any other faith).

See how our "neighbor" has it adopted (thanks to the True Buddhist leader Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar) giving it the highest honor...

But unfortunately something different is treated as Dhamma Chakka by acceptance and the one on Ashoka Pillars is called "Asoka Chakra" by acceptance...

Accepted shape has interpretations too.. all given at latter times...
Please compare it with what I quoted from Dhammachakkappawattana sutta... The phrase "Dhamma Chakka" was not used in Dhamma with the meaning in the following excepted text...

======================================================
Excerpted from Wikipidea (so this might be wrong...)

The eight spokes represent the Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism. They are said to have sharp edges to cut through ignorance.
Other symbolism in the eight-spoked Dharmacakra in Buddhism:

• Its overall shape is that of a circle (cakra), representing the perfection of the dharma teaching
• The hub stands for discipline, which is the essential core of meditation practice
• The rim, which holds the spokes, refers to mindfulness or samadhi which holds everything together

======================================================

More information can be found in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_Chakra

To me its like carrying on a historical mistakes without inquiring much...
See how competent we are to add various interpretations... There may be other interpretations too..

Anyway it does not matter what Dhamma chakka symbols we use as long as we follow the Path...
There is no need to get disturbed by this post... I know what I say is wrong by common acceptance...

But I want to highlight another important thing:
how impermanent (Anithya) even what we accept, interpretations we give in the society are...

It's amazing: to see the Teachings of Buddha (Dhamma) that talks about Anithya is still there in its pure form after 2552 years from Sambuddha Prinibbana.

Theruwan saranai!

 

[kalyanamithra]

There was another thing that I originally had in my previous post in the thread; I moved it to this post because I felt it irrelevant there... (I am sorry about editing it hours after posting...)

I checked Wikipedia because national emblem of Sri Lanka too has the Dhamma Chakka on its top.

I got it from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Sri_Lanka

But the page seems to refer to it as a cogwheel! It seems quite peculiar...
Does anyone know better?

Theruwan saranai!

 

[yashan]

Thorathuru walata bohoma pin..

 

[kalyanamithra]

Thorathuru walata bohoma pin..

Dharmanukula deyak nemeyi kivve... pehedenna epa...

 

[gpindika]

Teruwan Saranai

 

[Anandian]

Dear friends,

Thought to post this because of a query a friend made about the Dhamma Chakka symbols in my profile picture; signature, etc.
[My profile picture was excerpted from an image on: http://www.gautamabuddha.org]

Although it's not fully relevant to Dhamma; I hope posting this would make us think more about it... Please note this is a personal view I have; and its wrong by common acceptance. Please do not consider this as a Dhamma discussion...

How blindly we have started to use a Dhamma chakka that cannot be rolled? I too was blind to this fact until few months ago...

We know the part in Dhammacakkappavattana sutta

“Etam Bhagavatā Bārānasiyam Isipatane Migadāye anuttaram Dhammacakkam pavattitam, appativattiyam samanena vā brāhmanena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmin'ti” - "The incomparable wheel of Dhamma has been set to roll by the Blessed One… in a way that it cannot be turned back by any recluse, Brahmin, Deva, Mara, Brahma, or anyone in the world."

So a Chakka that symbolizes Dhamma should be a "wheel" which can be rolled..

See how it is represented in the Ashoka pillars erected at a time Rahathan wahanses were there to advise the Emperor Ashoka (he was a Buddhist at the time; so it's not reasonable to assume that the symbol is related to Hinduism or any other faith).

See how our "neighbor" has it adopted (thanks to the True Buddhist leader Bhimrao Ramji Ambedkar) giving it the highest honor...

But unfortunately something different is treated as Dhamma Chakka by acceptance and the one on Ashoka Pillars is called "Asoka Chakra" by acceptance...

Accepted shape has interpretations too.. all given at latter times...
Please compare it with what I quoted from Dhammachakkappawattana sutta... The phrase "Dhamma Chakka" was not used in Dhamma with the meaning in the following excepted text...

======================================================
Excerpted from Wikipidea (so this might be wrong...)

The eight spokes represent the Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism. They are said to have sharp edges to cut through ignorance.
Other symbolism in the eight-spoked Dharmacakra in Buddhism:

• Its overall shape is that of a circle (cakra), representing the perfection of the dharma teaching
• The hub stands for discipline, which is the essential core of meditation practice
• The rim, which holds the spokes, refers to mindfulness or samadhi which holds everything together

======================================================

More information can be found in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_Chakra

To me its like carrying on a historical mistakes without inquiring much...
See how competent we are to add various interpretations... There may be other interpretations too..

Anyway it does not matter what Dhamma chakka symbols we use as long as we follow the Path...
There is no need to get disturbed by this post... I know what I say is wrong by common acceptance...

But I want to highlight another important thing:
how impermanent (Anithya) even what we accept, interpretations we give in the society are...

It's amazing: to see the Teachings of Buddha (Dhamma) that talks about Anithya is still there in its pure form after 2552 years from Sambuddha Prinibbana.

Theruwan saranai!

yaa man, I totally digg that. I also am pretty confused at why they keep persisting with the spokes jutting out model. It's not much it is only a symbol yes. But shouldn't it be as much as an exact interpretation of the scripture, and not merely a design drawn up as a symbol.

 

[kalyanamithra]

yaa man, I totally digg that. I also am pretty confused at why they keep persisting with the spokes jutting out model. It's not much it is only a symbol yes. But shouldn't it be as much as an exact interpretation of the scripture, and not merely a design drawn up as a symbol.

I am adding more. This contains evidence to show that Ashoka Pillars contained Dhamma; and the famous one with the Dhamma chakka is located in Saranath; where the first Dhamma Sermon was held...
Can any person say location of a Pillar Having a Dhamma Chakka in Baraesa, Isipathana (now Saranath) just a coincidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_Pillar

So like Anandian, I too find it not correct to use something else instead of the "Dhamma Chakka" in the Ashoka Pillar.

Theruwan saranai!

 

[Kira007]

There was another thing that I originally had in my previous post in the thread; I moved it to this post because I felt it irrelevant there... (I am sorry about editing it hours after posting...)

I checked Wikipedia because national emblem of Sri Lanka too has the Dhamma Chakka on its top.

I got it from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Sri_Lanka

But the page seems to refer to it as a cogwheel! It seems quite peculiar...
Does anyone know better?

Theruwan saranai!

ape rajya lanchanaye thiyena darma chakkraya hari eka kiyalai mama hithanne...

Soma himi dawasak niyama darma chakkraya gena pehedili kala mata mathakai...
namuth okkoma mathaka ne...

 

[kalyanamithra]

ape rajya lanchanaye thiyena darma chakkraya hari eka kiyalai mama hithanne...

Soma himi dawasak niyama darma chakkraya gena pehedili kala mata mathakai...
namuth okkoma mathaka ne...

Mata pinwath Soma Swamin wahanse ohoma kiyanava mathaka ne; Eth obata mathaka vidiha hari venna one.. apith igena gena thiyenneth oya Dharma Chakrayama thamayi...

Mokada eka thamayi den sammatha vela thiyena chakraya... avasanavakata den sammatha chakkrayata kisima mulika Dharma deshana valata anukulava padanamak nehe...

Mama vimasanna heduve api niyama arutha anuvada mevage deyak vunath karanne kiyana ekayi...

Me balanna mevath (rupa CLICK karala mulashrayata yanna puluvan)














Mama akemethi vunath, loka sammathayen dharma chakraya venne mekayi

Me chakraya sampradhayikava piligena thivenava; man ahala thiyenavita vadu shilpin lesiyata karapu deyak nisa vecchi eithihasika vereddak...

1952 dhi sammatha karagath ekak bava meyin hegenava... den eke kotas valata therumuth dala thyenne... den karanna deyak ne...


Eth mage "profile picture" eka venas karana adahasak nam ne... Mokada Budhurajanan vahanase Dharmachacraya kiyala adhas karapu deta gelapena; rahathan vahanse la inna kale piligenuna de thamayi apata vedagath venne... Ayeth "profile picture" eka gena mata visthara karanna vena ekak nethi veyi kiyala hithanava; mokada me "thread" eka thiyenava ne

Kohomath meka dharma sakachchavak nove ne; kochchara katha karath api katavath vedak vena ekak ne...
man hithanne mata me gena kiyanna vena mukuth ne...

Theruwan saranai!

 

[Anandian]

Good summing up!

 

[amilazzz]

Hodai Mithraya !!!
Niyama wadak !!!
Keep Posting !

 

[kalyanamithra]

Mata hithuna mama kiyapu de veredi vidihata digata edeyi kiyala... e hindai me "post" eka danne...

Den loka sammathaya anuva piligena thiyena Dharma Chakkrayata api garu karanna one; mokada eka nirupanya karanneth Shri Saddharmayama thamai..

e chakkraya thamai me...

Kavuru hari Ashoka raja kalaye pava yeduna Dharma Chakkraya pavichchi karanawa Dhakinava nam,
...e kena sampradhaya behera kar pereni de nevath bhavitha karanna hadana va kiyala therum gannavanam bohoma pin...

Mokada oya gollo note nokarata meya bhavitha karana ayathana thiyenava (Lankaveth thiyenava; e ayath samahara then vala di "loka sammatha" chakkraya yoda ethi bava mama ahala thiyenava; e hinda me ka loku getaluvak karaganna nam one ne...)

mata nam gerehuvata kamak ne...
eth godak e vage thirana ganna aya api vage andhanukaranaya karana aya novana bava dena gaththoth hondai...

Vedagath ma de thamai:
Thathagathayan vahanse visin Branesa Isipathanaye Migadayedi vasara 2597 ta pera mulinma peralannata yedunu anuththara vu e Dharm Chakraya thamath perelemin pavathinava... eya kisima shramanyekuta, brahmayekuta, deviyekuta, marayekuta, brahmanayekut ho lokaye anek kisima kenekuta apasu karakavanna be... e peralima navathinava, yam davasaka Shrisaddharmaye niyama aruthin puhunu vana shrawakayan nethi vena kota, dharmayata vinaya kiya veredi de ganna kota... e nisa api me lebunu avasthave Dharmaye Hesiri prayojana laba genimath, heki pamanin meme Chakkraya peralimata upakara kirimath thamai vedagath..

Theruwan saranai!

 

[rapa]

 

[kalyanamithra]

Thanks
See "paudhgalika adahas" personal interpretations... No unanimity in accepting even the one adopted by "World Fellowship of Buddhists"...

Why? Because of not looking at Dhamma as a Shrawaka.... which is the start of editing, distorting Dhamma...

See what happened to Christianity? How many sects with different beliefs we have now... Why? The same reason..

If Buddhists continue doing like that Buddhism would end up the same way... various interpretations of Dhamma... So sad.. It's happening... What we can only do is practice Dhamma when we can; when we have Buddhist teachings... (teachings may not last long at this rate...)

Why do you think we could not adopt the Dhamma Chakka, which is very much in harmoney with the Teachings. How many of us know in what sense Buddha used the word Dhamma Chakka?

Now Dhamma Chakka is nothing but a "logo" - with different meanings attached to each parts (and different interpretaions...). You should look an see whether the Christians have done the same with the Cross. Why? We (including those in the committes that made the decisions do not have Shraddha in Dhamma).

Nevertheless we should rever the world-accepted symbol Dhamma Chakka (Why? it represents Shri Saddharma)... I fully agree with that. None of my posts were intended to insult it or insult Shri Saddharma...
But we should not attach meanings like this...

If you want to have some meaning attached to the symbol (because you no longer have the original meaing given by the Buddha to "Dhamma Chakka"; please refer Dhamma if you do not trust me) may be you can accept the meaning attached to the Symbol like an International body like "World Fellowship of Buddhists" (If you have Shraddha you can keep the meaning given by the Buddha...). But NOT the personal interpretations given by lay or monks...

See the post by Rapa; what do you think of Shraddha the person drafted that has? It's just a "symbol" for that person - he's/she's only trying to attached meanings. And as practicing Buddhists we should be cautious not to spread these "personal opinions" on things related to Dhamma... See what they are proposing? Ata Lo Dhahama... Can not you see how far the meaning of Dhamma Chakka "symbol" from its interpretation given by Buddha? Too sad to think how people we think to be "Buddhists" behave these days...

By contrarary we should know that the Symbol represents Dhamma, and hence our Sasthrun Wahanse... That's why Dhamma Chakka was used to represent the Buddha before the Buddhists started building statues..

Personally I am very happy to see original Dhamma Chakka being used at many Asapu/ Publications in Mahamevnawa (it's true world-accepted one too is used)... Unfortunately not even practicing Buddhists seem to be aware of what "Dhamma Chakka" means; It's not just a symbol...

And those of we enganged in spreading Dhamma in our capbilities should verify what we spread with Dhamma... Our ignorance is not an excuse.. because many others may think "we know something" (only we and readers knowing Dhamma would know that it is not so and that we are beginners...).

Hope all of us would start thinking like a Shrawaka - "It is Bhagyavathun vahanse that knows everything.. we know nothing (when in comes to Dhamma).."
We need to keep in mind we are tying in our capabilities to realize what disclosed by Bhagyavathun vahanse... Dhamma is not ours to interpret or distort...

Theruwan saranai!

 

[kalyanamithra]

Dear freinds,

As hdgpure had correctly pointed out in a PM sent to me (thanks my friend ), continuing this thread is not useful...

Hope we can focus on things like (where we can have less personal opinions...):
http://www.elakiri.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90219

OK, irrespective of the symbol we accept let's keep in mind the True meaning given by Sammasambuddha Gauthama to "Dhamma Chakka".

I'll be replying on this thread only if I feel any of new posts seem not in accordance to Dhamma... You are free to post anything...

Theruwan saranai!

 

[rapa]

Thanks
See "paudhgalika adahas" personal interpretations... No unanimity in accepting even the one adopted by "World Fellowship of Buddhists"...

Why? Because of not looking at Dhamma as a Shrawaka.... which is the start of editing, distorting Dhamma...

See what happened to Christianity? How many sects with different beliefs we have now... Why? The same reason..

If Buddhists continue doing like that Buddhism would end up the same way... various interpretations of Dhamma... So sad.. It's happening... What we can only do is practice Dhamma when we can; when we have Buddhist teachings... (teachings may not last long at this rate...)

Why do you think we could not adopt the Dhamma Chakka, which is very much in harmoney with the Teachings. How many of us know in what sense Buddha used the word Dhamma Chakka?

Now Dhamma Chakka is nothing but a "logo" - with different meanings attached to each parts (and different interpretaions...). You should look an see whether the Christians have done the same with the Cross. Why? We (including those in the committes that made the decisions do not have Shraddha in Dhamma).

Nevertheless we should rever the world-accepted symbol Dhamma Chakka (Why? it represents Shri Saddharma)... I fully agree with that. None of my posts were intended to insult it or insult Shri Saddharma...
But we should not attach meanings like this...

If you want to have some meaning attached to the symbol (because you no longer have the original meaing given by the Buddha to "Dhamma Chakka"; please refer Dhamma if you do not trust me) may be you can accept the meaning attached to the Symbol like an International body like "World Fellowship of Buddhists" (If you have Shraddha you can keep the meaning given by the Buddha...). But NOT the personal interpretations given by lay or monks...

See the post by Rapa; what do you think of Shraddha the person drafted that has? It's just a "symbol" for that person - he's/she's only trying to attached meanings. And as practicing Buddhists we should be cautious not to spread these "personal opinions" on things related to Dhamma... See what they are proposing? Ata Lo Dhahama... Can not you see how far the meaning of Dhamma Chakka "symbol" from its interpretation given by Buddha? Too sad to think how people we think to be "Buddhists" behave these days...

By contrarary we should know that the Symbol represents Dhamma, and hence our Sasthrun Wahanse... That's why Dhamma Chakka was used to represent the Buddha before the Buddhists started building statues..

Personally I am very happy to see original Dhamma Chakka being used at many Asapu/ Publications in Mahamevnawa (it's true world-accepted one too is used)... Unfortunately not even practicing Buddhists seem to be aware of what "Dhamma Chakka" means; It's not just a symbol...

And those of we enganged in spreading Dhamma in our capbilities should verify what we spread with Dhamma... Our ignorance is not an excuse.. because many others may think "we know something" (only we and readers knowing Dhamma would know that it is not so and that we are beginners...).

Hope all of us would start thinking like a Shrawaka - "It is Bhagyavathun vahanse that knows everything.. we know nothing (when in comes to Dhamma).."
We need to keep in mind we are tying in our capabilities to realize what disclosed by Bhagyavathun vahanse... Dhamma is not ours to interpret or distort...

Theruwan saranai!

darama chakaraya was not created by lord buddha, it was also created in past time even wikipidia articles can edit anyone.
so better thing find it before accept or reject these thing.
also this article got from book who wrote by Rerukane Chandawimala Thero

 

[kalyanamithra]

darama chakaraya was not created by lord buddha, it was also created in past time even wikipidia articles can edit anyone.
so better thing find it before accept or reject these thing.
also this article got from book who wrote by Rerukane Chandawimala Thero

The phrase Dhamm Chakka was used by Sammasambuddha Sutta (I think we can find it in: Sacca vibhanga Sutta..).

I do not care about the symbol; and I revere all symbols that represent Dhamma. Problem is the symbol we use in terms of "Dhamma Chakka" does not convey the meaning of the phrase "Dhamma Chakka" in Dhamma. The "inventors" could have called that symbol some thing else (why Dhamma Chakka? that's because of lack of Shraddha...) easily without creating conflict with original meaning...

Now people do not know what "Dhamma Chakkara" is; the meaning Buddha used the phrase... Think how many of us know what it is! Some of us would at least remember the symbol being used by acceptance (and which one? there seems to be many versions/ interpretations) Isn't it sad to see original words of Buddha getting hidden by Myths all because of we lacking Shradhha...

It was not that way e.g. in the times of Ashoka. The symbol was used to represent Buddha (recall they do not have statues those days).

Making the things worse people attaching different meanings to it.. and none of them related to original meanings... What do you think about the meaning "Ata Lo Dahama"?
Do you think it is related to the meaning Buddha conveyed through using the phrase "Dhamma Chakka"? Are you accepting it just because a Thero wrote it? Is it the way we Shrawakas should accept things...
(And personally advise you to check facts of Dhamma in the books against Dhamma; getting this symbol wrong won't make much harm; but not all facts in books even by very much revered Theros are not correct..
We should cultivate the habit of checking against Dhamma... I feel it lacking in many of us...)

Personally I feel the meaning "Ata Lo Dahama" clearly conflicting with the way the phrase "Dhamma Chakka" is used in Dhamma. What do you mean then by "dhamma chakka pavatthanaya"?
And I have Shraddha to accept what in the original teachings irrespective of who tells me it differently.

I suggest reading/listening to Chakkawathi Sihanada Sutta. There it says how a chakkawarthi king "pavatwattana" his chakkra... it is with a similar meaning Buddha uses Dhamma Chakka.
Because the way a Buddha makes the chakkra "rolling" while spreading Dhamma can be paralleled to what a chakkawarthi king does... A Deshana on the Sutta by Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero is found here.

If we do not see Shraddha growing in us sufficient to use the words without distorting;
or
if we tend to accept things as in Dhamma just because we see it in books (I am not referring to Tipitaka)

we should double check if we are in the correct Path...

Theruwan saranai!

 

[kalyanamithra]

Dear friends,

Thought to post the first section of Sacca Vibhanga sutta (source: http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/141-saccavibhanga-s.html ) since most of us are unfortunately reluctant to see Tipitaka to find the Sutta...



Original meaning of "Dhamma Chakkra" is found in sutta like this.. not in Books written in recent times...

True; Budurajanan wahanse did not draw a symbol and ask us to use it... Nevertheless the phrase "Dhamma Chakkra" used in anything associated with Buddhism refers to the phrase used by the Buddha... Attaching any other meaning to the phrase "Dhamma Chakkra" (by having a "logo"/"symbol" with some other meaning attached by convension...) is belittling Dhamma...

Too bad many of us do not seem to have Shraddha to accept Dhamma in original form...

Theruwan saranai!

 

[Sudantha_s]

 

[kalyanamithra]

View expressed by Ven. Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero on "Dhamma Chakka" is found in the mid of this Deshana...
http://www.gautamabuddha.ca/bana/sinhala/057_Pancha_Sekabala.mp3

I think the Dhamma Deshana is enlightening even without this... because it explains 5 things we have to cultivate...

Theruwan saranai!