Aethist corner of Elakiri

[GuneBhai]

I wouldn't call them dumb people though.

To have something to believe in given all the doubts, questions we are presented with, is really necessary.

universe is too big and so are our imaginations, so I guess it's obvious that people feel sort of lost since they cannot reconcile the things they feel with what they see

if you believe in buddhism, you know why somethings happen the way they happen in that certain context. But if you didn't have religion, you wouldn't know why somethings happen in some certain ways, things which to your rational mind seem too unfair

Believing in a supernatural BS just because there is no explanation about the natural world is a pretty dumb thing regardless of ones gray matter. People believed sun, rain, thunderstorms etc., as acts of god in the early days. But if someone still says that, we would've laugh at him.

Therefore what we can't understand don't make it a reason for believing in god or any supernatural BS including the ones in Buddhism. So far we have come a long way learning about the natural world and it's way of things but not in one instance that we've found evidence of a thing that can be attributed to god/supernatural. Therefore it is safe to presume that it will be similarly applicable in the future.

 

[sirajstc]

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST


Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.


LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD


My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)


QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE


The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?


THEORY OF PROBABILITY


In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.



The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.


CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN


The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.


QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE


Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD


Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Reference: http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativereligion/index.htm

 

[twisted]

Believing in a supernatural BS just because there is no explanation about the natural world is a pretty dumb thing regardless of ones gray matter. People believed sun, rain, thunderstorms etc., as acts of god in the early days. But if someone still says that, we would've laugh at him.

Therefore what we can't understand don't make it a reason for believing in god or any supernatural BS including the ones in Buddhism. So far we have come a long way learning about the natural world and it's way of things but not in one instance that we've found evidence of a thing that can be attributed to god/supernatural. Therefore it is safe to presume that it will be similarly applicable in the future.

we have definitely come a long way, there's no question there..but the basic things that drive us have not changed..so I guess we still pursue the same things we did back then but now in different shapes and sizes..but quite the same in principal..scientists look for the basic building blocks of the universe splitting atoms and what not, searching the sky..rest will not take much comfort in these findings, they will continue to have faith in whatever religion they believe in..

what science can't do, however advanced and developed it may be, is rationalize good and bad in human mind, how good or bad is rewarded in life..life for most people is not eat sleep procreate..most people aren't independent in our thinking as some us are..people need to have meaning in life as I've mentioned earlier as well I guess, a destination to this tiresome journey.. if science could answer these questions, there would be no need of a religion, future would be bright..but we are a long way from any such collective thinking.

do you honestly think people are prepared to believe that your time in universe would be end with this life? you'll need a heaven to go to..or a next life where the things you did in this life will be rewarded

more I think of it, science has nothing at all to do with religion..they could co-exist without over lapping boundaries...Deities will continue to be in our hearts (at least as something so simple as luck) if not in the trees..

 

[GuneBhai]

we have definitely come a long way, there's no question there..but the basic things that drive us have not changed..so I guess we still pursue the same things we did back then but now in different shapes and sizes..but quite the same in principal..scientists look for the basic building blocks of the universe splitting atoms and what not, searching the sky..rest will not take much comfort in these findings, they will continue to have faith in whatever religion they believe in..

what science can't do, however advanced and developed it may be, is rationalize good and bad in human mind, how good or bad is rewarded in life..life for most people is not eat sleep procreate..most people aren't independent in our thinking as some us are..people need to have meaning in life as I've mentioned earlier as well I guess, a destination to this tiresome journey.. if science could answer these questions, there would be no need of a religion, future would be bright..but we are a long way from any such collective thinking.

do you honestly think people are prepared to believe that your time in universe would be end with this life? you'll need a heaven to go to..or a next life where the things you did in this life will be rewarded

more I think of it, science has nothing at all to do with religion..they could co-exist without over lapping boundaries...Deities will continue to be in our hearts (at least as something so simple as luck) if not in the trees..

You know many people are ignorant. That means they are not stupid but they don't know things. Back in the days where there was no internet or at least paper, there was no easy method to distribute the scientific knowledge to en masses. But in these days it is pretty easy to do that specially in the internet. Many people are now learning what is really happening around them and slowly getting out of their ignorance. It will take some time but surely it will make people better and wise.

However you've said that no scientist has ever attempted to research about the human mind and rationalized it. But there was a scientist that had done just the same. He had lived not just few centuries back but few millenniums. His name is Gautama Buddha. Buddha as a scientist has shown us what to do and why we should do it. If the Buddha's word is not strong enough for today's scientist they can replicate what Buddha did and find out.

 

[ජොනී බට්ට]

I wouldn't call them dumb people though.

To have something to believe in given all the doubts, questions we are presented with, is really necessary.

universe is too big and so are our imaginations, so I guess it's obvious that people feel sort of lost since they cannot reconcile the things they feel with what they see

if you believe in buddhism, you know why somethings happen the way they happen in that certain context. But if you didn't have religion, you wouldn't know why somethings happen in some certain ways, things which to your rational mind seem too unfair

why should people have something to believe in? why do people feel lost? that's because most of the humans are weak, emotional and have so much to loose. if they can really believe in themselves only and not give a fuck about other stuff there is no need to believe in something that cannot be seen.

as a former catholic i know all those stories about god and blah blah are a bunch of fairy tales that are utterly bullshit. i'm not saying their teachings are also bullshit, they do teach good things. but all those stories there are a whole lot of fairy tales in buddhism too. but when comparing i think buddhism is far better than any religion out there.

human mind is not yet complete, maybe after another 100, 200 years humans will evolve and understand there is nothing supernatural in this world. then we will be able to explain everything with a bunch of equations

i don't believe in anything that cannot be seen. i just believe in myself, i know what's right and wrong. i do good things. not believing in anything haven't made me a mad man or bad person. i also have problems, doubts and i have made mistakes. but then i don't run to the church and pray and ask for answers or circle around a tree to make my problems go away.... I just think why, i think and think and think until i know why. it has worked for me so far. and i feel really really awesome being an atheist. it's like 50% of the human problems are gone away

 

[GuneBhai]

why should people have something to believe in? why do people feel lost? that's because most of the humans are weak, emotional and have so much to loose. if they can really believe in themselves only and not give a fuck about other stuff there is no need to believe in something that cannot be seen.

as a former catholic i know all those stories about god and blah blah are a bunch of fairy tales that are utterly bullshit. i'm not saying their teachings are also bullshit, they do teach good things. but all those stories there are a whole lot of fairy tales in buddhism too. but when comparing i think buddhism is far better than any religion out there.

human mind is not yet complete, maybe after another 100, 200 years humans will evolve and understand there is nothing supernatural in this world. then we will be able to explain everything with a bunch of equations

i don't believe in anything that cannot be seen. i just believe in myself, i know what's right and wrong. i do good things. not believing in anything haven't made me a mad man or bad person. i also have problems, doubts and i have made mistakes. but then i don't run to the church and pray and ask for answers or circle around a tree to make my problems go away.... I just think why, i think and think and think until i know why. it has worked for me so far. and i feel really really awesome being an atheist. it's like 50% of the human problems are gone away

Ai machan. Are you are a former Catholic... Anyway I became atheist and now I'm a agnostic.

 

[rajitha_ks]

why should people have something to believe in? why do people feel lost? that's because most of the humans are weak, emotional and have so much to loose. if they can really believe in themselves only and not give a fuck about other stuff there is no need to believe in something that cannot be seen.

as a former catholic i know all those stories about god and blah blah are a bunch of fairy tales that are utterly bullshit. i'm not saying their teachings are also bullshit, they do teach good things. but all those stories there are a whole lot of fairy tales in buddhism too. but when comparing i think buddhism is far better than any religion out there.

human mind is not yet complete, maybe after another 100, 200 years humans will evolve and understand there is nothing supernatural in this world. then we will be able to explain everything with a bunch of equations

i don't believe in anything that cannot be seen. i just believe in myself, i know what's right and wrong. i do good things. not believing in anything haven't made me a mad man or bad person. i also have problems, doubts and i have made mistakes. but then i don't run to the church and pray and ask for answers or circle around a tree to make my problems go away.... I just think why, i think and think and think until i know why. it has worked for me so far. and i feel really really awesome being an atheist. it's like 50% of the human problems are gone away

man im so glad to see there are others who think the same way as i am.

if you were a girl i'd marry you

 

[ජොනී බට්ට]

Ai machan. Are you are a former Catholic... Anyway I became atheist and now I'm a agnostic.

catholic for 18 years then a buddhist for few months you should've remained as an atheist. either be religious or don't be religious. make up your mind. being agnostic is kinda silly

man im so glad to see there are others who think the same way as i am.

if you were a girl i'd marry you

 

[GuneBhai]

catholic for 18 years then a buddhist for few months you should've remained as an atheist. either be religious or don't be religious. make up your mind. being agnostic is kinda silly

nah... agnostic mean I'm Buddhist.

 

[ජොනී බට්ට]

nah... agnostic mean I'm Buddhist.

 

[rajitha_ks]

nah... agnostic mean I'm Buddhist.

too lame

 

[GuneBhai]

too lame

why?

 

[panchaz]

why should people have something to believe in? why do people feel lost? that's because most of the humans are weak, emotional and have so much to loose. if they can really believe in themselves only and not give a fuck about other stuff there is no need to believe in something that cannot be seen.

as a former catholic i know all those stories about god and blah blah are a bunch of fairy tales that are utterly bullshit. i'm not saying their teachings are also bullshit, they do teach good things. but all those stories there are a whole lot of fairy tales in buddhism too. but when comparing i think buddhism is far better than any religion out there.

human mind is not yet complete, maybe after another 100, 200 years humans will evolve and understand there is nothing supernatural in this world. then we will be able to explain everything with a bunch of equations

i don't believe in anything that cannot be seen. i just believe in myself, i know what's right and wrong. i do good things. not believing in anything haven't made me a mad man or bad person. i also have problems, doubts and i have made mistakes. but then i don't run to the church and pray and ask for answers or circle around a tree to make my problems go away.... I just think why, i think and think and think until i know why. it has worked for me so far. and i feel really really awesome being an atheist. it's like 50% of the human problems are gone away

 

[rajitha_ks]

why?

you consider agnostic is the same as being buddhist? gimme a break man.
true buddhism gives a bit more freedom of thought to the followers.. but believing in something some one person said over two thousand years ago is still not much different than believing any other religion.

 

[twisted]

You know many people are ignorant. That means they are not stupid but they don't know things. Back in the days where there was no internet or at least paper, there was no easy method to distribute the scientific knowledge to en masses. But in these days it is pretty easy to do that specially in the internet. Many people are now learning what is really happening around them and slowly getting out of their ignorance. It will take some time but surely it will make people better and wise.

However you've said that no scientist has ever attempted to research about the human mind and rationalized it. But there was a scientist that had done just the same. He had lived not just few centuries back but few millenniums. His name is Gautama Buddha. Buddha as a scientist has shown us what to do and why we should do it. If the Buddha's word is not strong enough for today's scientist they can replicate what Buddha did and find out.

internet can't give you answers to questions I'd mentioned in my last post man..even to take answers Buddhas teachings has offered as to why things happen the way they do or where we come from or go to, you'd need a certain amount of faith in the religion.

to take the word of a religious figure that lived more than 2500 years ago and base how things are today on that, I'd say is quite a leap of faith.

do correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought atheism stands for freedom of thought, not be bound by karma or a distant enlightenment.

 

[twisted]

why should people have something to believe in? why do people feel lost? that's because most of the humans are weak, emotional and have so much to loose. if they can really believe in themselves only and not give a fuck about other stuff there is no need to believe in something that cannot be seen.

as a former catholic i know all those stories about god and blah blah are a bunch of fairy tales that are utterly bullshit. i'm not saying their teachings are also bullshit, they do teach good things. but all those stories there are a whole lot of fairy tales in buddhism too. but when comparing i think buddhism is far better than any religion out there.

human mind is not yet complete, maybe after another 100, 200 years humans will evolve and understand there is nothing supernatural in this world. then we will be able to explain everything with a bunch of equations

i don't believe in anything that cannot be seen. i just believe in myself, i know what's right and wrong. i do good things. not believing in anything haven't made me a mad man or bad person. i also have problems, doubts and i have made mistakes. but then i don't run to the church and pray and ask for answers or circle around a tree to make my problems go away.... I just think why, i think and think and think until i know why. it has worked for me so far. and i feel really really awesome being an atheist. it's like 50% of the human problems are gone away

So you've moved from believing in god to not believing in god and become an atheist?

anyway, weak or not, questions about mortality that we all get will always haunt us weak or not.. I'm sure you are raised with them too. things you choose to ignore may be things that are too important to be ignored for some people..they might find the explanations rational thinking can give them, not quite adequate.

I do admire your way of thinking and it seems the way to go but you gotta understand how majority of people reason things. Religion give people hope when they've lost all else around them, purify their minds when they've become too guilty..this list could go on forever.

what I cannot understand however is if you are that free from religions, why do you need to label yourself atheist? seems to me just as much another form of faith or handle as any other religion can offer a mind to hold on to.

 

[dayt0na]

you consider agnostic is the same as being buddhist? gimme a break man.
true buddhism gives a bit more freedom of thought to the followers.. but believing in something some one person said over two thousand years ago is still not much different than believing any other religion.

What's your point?.. Believing is an integral part of being Human. Animals can't believe, are you saying humans should stop believing?
In my point of view this school of thinking can be quite similar to the mindset of religious radicals.

 

[rajitha_ks]

What's your point?.. Believing is an integral part of being Human. Animals can't believe, are you saying humans should stop believing?
In my point of view this school of thinking can be quite similar to the mindset of religious radicals.

how do you say animals can't believe?
you should believe something based on known facts and experience. you can believe sun will rise tomorrow on the east, either you are aware of celestial mechanics, or because you've lived long enough to witness sun rising from east every single day you've lived, so it's safe to assume it will rise again tomorrow, and not because some old religious text book says so. do you get my logic?
any belief should be coupled with scientific knowledge or experience or both..
and one more thing. all beliefs should be associated with some sort of probability. there's very high probability that sun would rise in the east tomorrow.. but always there's a very remote probability that it might not, for some unknown reason. maybe it might explode tomorrow who knows? hence probability

believing in something just because somebody said so, or for no reason is plain stupidity

 

[rudayas]

count me in

 

[MR.BILLA]

awaaa!!