this is the problem, in the sense and word you have translated neither of the translation match this. The quran theme is same whichever authentic translation you take.Quran eglish translation is available online, anyone can match this.
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If God created ALL, what created God?
- Thread starter IcedEarth
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Ok Hafizaad bro, First i must say Evil may not be a problem to you but it is a great problem to whole world. As i have come to known that you are a Pakistani evil is a much more problem to your region. Thousand of people are dying and thousands are suffering but its not a problem to you....
You said that god created this world as a test. Why an almighty and all-known god would do tests if he knows everything??. that certainly question the gods wisdom..If he is the creator of every man then he must know what his creation would do after the creation is completed. If god knows that his creations are going to be disbelievers why would he create them in the first place?? Well you may say that he knows that they are going to be disbelievers. So he just creates them to burn in hell??? Nice theory Hafiza... I don't buy food which i don't eat. Do you?
Then If you say your god is good and heavenly Then you indirectly say your god is evil and Hell.
When you say I praise allah you indirectly say i Praise all evil.
When you say GOD You Say Shaitan.
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brother you dont try to read complete what i have posted..You have selected some sentense like"problem of evil"and start commenting on it whithout read the whole i says. I again suggest read again to clear other point, only one point is newly arise that is second paragraph.
I request you read completly if you want to know the situation.
is God is evil (shaitan) as he Created Evil (nauzu billah)
it is sure evil (thing unfavourable to us) also created by Allah.
“Allah created all things, and he is the agent, upon which, all things depend. And Allah created you and whatever you do.” (Surah 39, verse 62)
he has created evil and good just to test who will select evil path (shaitan path) and who remain righteous.
Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from Error; whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.Quran (2,256)
6:153 Verily, this is My way, leading straight: follow it: follow not (other) paths: they will scatter you about from His (great) path: thus doth He command you. that ye may be righteous.
but again i repeat it is just to test who will remain righteous in between.
evil concept in islam is in very vast sense that include sometime plessuring thing also as per situation...any thing related to man which can harm men here and hereafter like his sin, wealth use bad way etc. so the test is not only in facing the evil, the Testing may also be in the form of blessings, wealth, health, knowledge, children, family, security, peace…etc. how he has used these blessings in the world is a great test. The test may also be given, by testing us by one another. The true believers submit to God in all cases and under all circumstances.
We will surely test you through some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives, and crops. Give good news to the steadfast. [2:155]
You should know that your money and your children are a test, and that GOD possesses a great recompense. [8:28]
“Or do you think that you will enter Heaven without being tested like those who were tested before you? ” [Holy Quran 2:214]
World is the place of test, heaven is the place of Reward for the believers. Problem and difficulties are for test. Heaven is place of blessing and rewards from Allah after the succeeding in these tests ...The people of heaven will praise Allah and thank to Allah who has saved them from Hell and given reward to them for the difficulties they face in life and remain righteous, But this is also not necessary to Praise, in heaven.
why test if Allah is all knowing:
Now you have asked if Allah is all knowing then why test.
Mean Allah has shown both way to human being Good and Bad and give open authority and power to check and select. Now again this cant harm his knowing power.he know all before and after.read below completly to avoid any misunderstanding
More logically
Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason and free will and choice, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allaah after the (coming of) Messengers. And Allaah is Ever All‑Powerful, All‑Wise”
[al-Nisa’ 4:165].
In this aayah it clearly states that it is essential to leave no excuse for anyone, by sending the Messengers who give glad tidings of Paradise to those who obey them and give warning of Hell to those who disobey them.
This excuse is completely ruled out here by the sending of the Messengers with glad tidings and warnings, as is stated at the end of Soorah Ta-Ha where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if We had destroyed them with a torment before this (i.e. Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Qur’aan), they would surely, have said: ‘Our Lord! If only You had sent us a Messenger, we should certainly have followed Your Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), before we were humiliated and disgraced’” [Ta-Ha 20:134].
It is also referred to in Soorah al-Qasas where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And if (We had) not (sent you to the people of Makkah) __ in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they would have said: ‘Our Lord! Why did You not send us a Messenger? We would then have followed Your Ayaat (Verses of the Qur’aan) and would have been among the believers’”
[al-Qasas 28:47].
Brother i hope i will not be required to answer more comments if you read complete all above and my before posts. Please dont make it like a win, lose war point. we just want to clear the misunderstandings.
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In response to the question, “If God exists why is there evil in the world?” I would respond by saying there is no problem of evil at all. Things undesirable to humans (not necessarily evil) do exist or occur in the world, but that is not contradictory to God existing or God’s power or attributes. This is easy to understand when we keep in mind four issues:
1. God’s attributes
2. The Insignificance of this world and the primacy of the eternal Hereafter
3. God’s Purpose for creating this world as a test.
4. God’s Wisdom and our limited knowledge
For Detail of Every Point see
Brother Goodness would not be possible without the resistance of evil. The evil in the world is meant to be overcome. Whoever asks why must there be evil when God can remove it is missing the point. without evil there could be no moral or spiritual development.if there is no evil then there is no need for examination.
if there was no night; we would never appreciate the light of day. if there was no poverty; we would never appreciate the riches Allah has given us. if there was no illness; we would never be grateful for the health that Allah has given us. see William Blake beautiful poem The Human Abstract
Allah created this world with lot of diversity to make it a test for us, some will pass and some will fail. without such diversity it will be a vapid world and there will be no reason to test humans.he test who will remain righteous in that evil or worst situation .
i suggest that those who question the existence of Allah using this argument must consider the whole case. if Allah has created someone terminally ill; then they must also agree that He remains the all-merciful due to His treatment of the ill in the hereafter. if Allah had created the ill and had then made them ressponsible too; then one could have questioned islamic belief but when the bigger picture is looked at; we learn that there is no being more merciful and compassionate than Allah.
i hope this will clear otherwise without seeking the actual idea one can ask any question like below:
- why do you exist?
- why do you need a bumpy face? why can't it be just flat and square with nice round holes on one side neatly lined on one edge? [think of a flat screen]
- why do you need to breathe? is it not an impediment for you to go underwater? is it not zulm that a fish can live underwater, and you cannot?
- why can't children grow on trees? instead of the labor and pain? and nine months wait...
and here is a loaded question:
why do you die? why should you not live forever? and why should you suffer? why should you not live a life without sickness or pain? why can't there be a world without sin?
Everyone is going to taste death, and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good, and to Us you will be returned. Quran (21,35)
which sentenses
Brother i think this Complex Concept discussed here many time, simply in any spare time we can thought about the creator of nature, the very first sell and soul creator...the controler of this complex universe with accuracy, the infinite universe etc.
we muslim dont think and says with our own Philosophy and to convince other to our self God but we are warned and aware by Our Allah through his Prophets and we have the Book of God words, which accurately describes all this. The Quran..
Hello Hafizsaad,
Your reply doesn't carry the answer to my question. My question is, why do some people face bad situations, ill health and poverty, while the others don't. Some people are born poor, born ill, born to poor social situations. In fact, it's not even a problem of good and bad; it's a range with many different states. Why is this difference? And saying that some people have to suffer because 'mankind' is evil, is a silly answer because there's no reason why some should suffer for something they haven't done.
Why are only some people examined? Some of them who have done nothing wrong in this life? If you think there should be evil for the moral and spiritual development, does it mean we should cultivate evil?? When two persons stand if one is ugly, we can see the contrast beauty in the other person; on one hand, this is an illusion, and on the other, you tend to forget the effect on the other person- he is seen as more ugly.
In fact, through out your answer, you have omitted this perspective:
"Us" is always in the good side. In other words, you never consider 'us' being the poor, 'us' being the sick.
Since you look at it from the point of view of the person who has it all good, it's easier to be grateful, and of course, to be tested! If it is a test, it is a very unfair test.
Do you mean that all those who are terminally ill get an automatic pass to heavens? Then why weren't everybody made terminally ill? Again, a very unfair test.
Again, 'We', 'Us'. Do you believe there more than one person up there involved in all this?
I have colour coded my answer, so there cannot be a confusion. It's alright; I won't press you.
Growing old, sickness, death, not getting what one desires, having to put up with things one doesn't desire, sorrow etc. all come under suffering. People seek a way to overcome these issues. Some people discover (or learn from those who discovered) that the reason behind suffering is birth; they further examine in this line and discover that the reason behind it all is lust. The they find a way to get rid of that lust, prevent being born again, and end suffering forever.
Some others put the responsibility on someone with supernatural powers, allow the illusion to take over them and go on believing that one day, one day, everything is going to be alright.
Brother this concept is totally related to islamic Concept of Life of human being,if you will see this with budhist point of view without going to learn completly islamic detail about the topic, all other concept will also be Questionable to you like if i start criticising about the basic concept of budhism without seeing the complete idea behind that. You have to study seriously for understanding.This is not a COnfusing concept. It is very clear to all Beleiver (Muslim, Cristianity etc). i have requested to read about the background in begining of my last post also. what i am telling here is just an overview, if you like to understand, my last post also clearing the point more.
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Mr.Dilankandy,
In addition to what Mr.Hafizaad mentioned. I would like to say u onething, see when i studied O/L, my teacher knows very well that i am very much bright student, she is extremely sure and know that I will get more than 75marks in all the papers and get pass. but I was still tested with exam papers. only after i got passed i was allowed to move to A/L.
Hope this simple example will explain u rather than explaining u toomuch.
Quotations taken from hafizaads Post....
Ok you accept Your almighty god created both evil and good. As long as you say he is the leader to good, you must accept so does he is the leader to the evil because both are his own creations of ultimate wisdom. And even he created evil he does not want human to follow it. If he does not want people to follow an evil way why bother to create evil? What a contradiction… He leads some people in good way while he leads some people in evil way. How do you choose if you are lead in both ways by god him self. How do you know that you are following the good way? How do you know that quran isnt the book of evil which may possibly written by god him self to mislead you? How do you know Muhammad isnt indeed the prophet of evil side of god? how do you know all that if god created evil so as good? Then you cant believe in quran or any prophets can you?(Dont take that as insult..they are questions for your self to reveal)
Both are god’s ways and some go to heaven and some go to hell just because they followed gods ways. Well I say that is not Wisdom or almightiness but mere hypocriticalness …
So god just test people. He does not care about them. All he does is this ridicules unfair test. It appears to me that he watches how men fighting and killing each other to prove this goodness or belief… You are forgetting the fact that if he hasn’t created the evil everyone will stay in the so-called righteous path…
There are three pregnant mothers on a boat. They are pregnant with sons. One of them is Muslim, one of them is Jewish and other one is a Christian. They give birth to there children on the boat but boat suddenly sinks killing everyone including newly born kids.
HOW DID GOD TEST THOSE KIDS?
Can you tell me the religions of those kids?
Why did they die right after they were born?
Who will go to hell and who will go to heaven?
You may say that god him self sank the boat because he knew what those kids will be (believers or non-believers) If so why does he bother to create them and kill them right after their birth???
Which kid is in the righteous path according to his deeds??
Seenibola logics
So you say that allah is not sure about his own creations. That’s why he waits for them to act and then catch them with their actions.(caught on act right..) Almighty all knowing allah is not sure about his actions.. !!! He creates a believer and he waits for him to act as believer to give him a pass for heaven. He creates a disbeliever and then wait for him to act as a disbeliever to send him to hell.. If he is sure he could have given the pass without hesitation but wouldn’t do that because even he doesnt know what his creation would choose...
Well the meaning of almighty is it self someone that is unquestionable. No one can argue gods wisdom. Then why would your god bother about arguments of his own creations? Isnt he almighty to do whatever he want..
(And speaking of free will cant you remember his so-called last messenger executed three jewish tribes? What happened to there free will?)
When coming back to arguments with god what does the quran says if you question the HOLY WORDS? (Even though Muslims calls others are blinded by religion)
And If you think this from the other side if god put all human in heaven instead of hell, will they still argue with god that he did not give them a test so they could go to hell? How funny….
Finally something which both of us can agree…..
Ok you accept Your almighty god created both evil and good. As long as you say he is the leader to good, you must accept so does he is the leader to the evil because both are his own creations of ultimate wisdom. And even he created evil he does not want human to follow it. If he does not want people to follow an evil way why bother to create evil? What a contradiction… He leads some people in good way while he leads some people in evil way. How do you choose if you are lead in both ways by god him self. How do you know that you are following the good way? How do you know that quran isnt the book of evil which may possibly written by god him self to mislead you? How do you know Muhammad isnt indeed the prophet of evil side of god? how do you know all that if god created evil so as good? Then you cant believe in quran or any prophets can you?(Dont take that as insult..they are questions for your self to reveal)
Both are god’s ways and some go to heaven and some go to hell just because they followed gods ways. Well I say that is not Wisdom or almightiness but mere hypocriticalness …
So god just test people. He does not care about them. All he does is this ridicules unfair test. It appears to me that he watches how men fighting and killing each other to prove this goodness or belief… You are forgetting the fact that if he hasn’t created the evil everyone will stay in the so-called righteous path…
Ok let me ask this. It may seem unimportant but im curios to know
There are three pregnant mothers on a boat. They are pregnant with sons. One of them is Muslim, one of them is Jewish and other one is a Christian. They give birth to there children on the boat but boat suddenly sinks killing everyone including newly born kids.
HOW DID GOD TEST THOSE KIDS?
Can you tell me the religions of those kids?
Why did they die right after they were born?
Who will go to hell and who will go to heaven?
You may say that god him self sank the boat because he knew what those kids will be (believers or non-believers) If so why does he bother to create them and kill them right after their birth???
Which kid is in the righteous path according to his deeds??
Seenibola logics
So you say that allah is not sure about his own creations. That’s why he waits for them to act and then catch them with their actions.(caught on act right..) Almighty all knowing allah is not sure about his actions.. !!! He creates a believer and he waits for him to act as believer to give him a pass for heaven. He creates a disbeliever and then wait for him to act as a disbeliever to send him to hell.. If he is sure he could have given the pass without hesitation but wouldn’t do that because even he doesnt know what his creation would choose...
Well the meaning of almighty is it self someone that is unquestionable. No one can argue gods wisdom. Then why would your god bother about arguments of his own creations? Isnt he almighty to do whatever he want..
(And speaking of free will cant you remember his so-called last messenger executed three jewish tribes? What happened to there free will?)
When coming back to arguments with god what does the quran says if you question the HOLY WORDS? (Even though Muslims calls others are blinded by religion)
And If you think this from the other side if god put all human in heaven instead of hell, will they still argue with god that he did not give them a test so they could go to hell? How funny….
Finally something which both of us can agree…..
I appreciate your comment here but i must tell you that we are talking about an ALMIGHTY and ALL-KNOWING GOD whom does not bound to rules and regulations made by his superiors like your teacher. see there are limitations for our teachers but an Almighty GOD must not have any because he is almighty (describes in most Theist holy books)....
A person who can act alone on his will power...
anyway value your comment...
Dilan,
This is the only simple Example I can give u to convince you. I am not comparing God with teacher but to show u in simple way only, I took this as an example.we cant expect god to come & say why he has done likethat.
other than that, Hafizaad explained to u, which u dont accept. so i feel i have nothing more to reiterate on that as you won't be understanding. better u do ur own research. Thanks
Our shariah says every kids born on the nature of islam, his parent after make him jews, cristian etc according to their religion, so the situation of kids on boat you mention, they are not questionable and also more the Kids are not questionable for his deeds before majurity age.
your second comment why God bother about creation, our religion says every thing is created by God, so he can do with them what he want, but he is merciful and do care them and want them to succeed, you will Take here the point then why he give difficulties to them, i think we have discussed also this concept having different background in more than 100 lines.
what about jews executed by Prophets is also your misconception just due to not knowing the context and background of situation. When Prophet came to madinah they make the agreement with all tribes of madinah and also with Jews for cooperation and help and settlement of each other etc, But jews try to execute the prophet and whole muslim when the war of Khandak start with the idiolter of Makkah, had not pass the agreement. With the Help of allah they were not succeed and The whole muslim saves from their this very dangerous trick so after war they are thrown out from Madinah with the decision of All Tribe of Madinah and these jews then settled at Khyber. For complete detail you can google it with islamic history.
what about Quran, Brother i am thinking every time when answering you, that your Question required the Complete Concept and idealogy of islam, without this you will keep on question without any benefits, Brother we are not idealistic or forcly bound to accept and remain muslim, our every concept and idea is clear and authentic with sure logical and reference proof from God, there is no contradiction and blind faith...Our Quran could not be Questionable by any Beleiver who have understanding and Knowledge...it discussing all thing very clearly and all the backgroud of its verses revelation are also saved so there is no confusion about it. what other people think and confused from it is just due to the influence of the propeganda creat against it. otherwise any self serious search can make clear any person confusion.
Brother sorry, you keep on assuming with crazy example again and again just to confused the topic...brother try to understand the topic. i have given much detail about the concept of life of human on earth also about the argument on test before hell. Secondly for your new comment. we will says if Allah puts all human directly to the heaven then why he make this world, there was no any need of all this universe system required after this. Quran says:
67:2 He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
Brother i am thinking from the beginning you don't like to understand what i am posting again and again...Better is we stop the discussion, as i am busy in my MBA Exams.#
thank for concern.
sorry for any insulting word.
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Ok Hafizaad, because you have requested me to stop this discussion due to an important exam you may face near future I and that i have understood that you are a hard believer whose not willing to think on a free will and a non-bias rational mind in spite of all those logical and rational facts given by us which are very clear even to a child. I agree with you that i should stop this useless discussion. (no offense)
Since you are not willing to continue this discussion if you have time please PM me the answer to this question...
In your earlier posts you said god choose which one to enter Eternal heaven based on their Deeds on this life... In here you say kids are not questionable for their deeds until maturity... Those two posts are contadict to each other... I want to know What exactly is happening to children who dies prematurely? will they Enter heaven or hell? I need a complete answer and if you can a phrase from quran according the matter...
P.S. i wish you best of luck with your test....!
Ok Hafizaad,
In your earlier posts you said god choose which one to enter Eternal heaven based on their Deeds on this life... In here you say kids are not questionable for their deeds until maturity... Those two posts are contadict to each other... I want to know What exactly is happening to children who dies prematurely? will they Enter heaven or hell? I need a complete answer and if you can a phrase from quran according the matter...
P.S. i wish you best of luck with your test....!
Brother i think it is clear, Before maturity age, a person is not responsible for his deeds as he is immature. This concept also implies to all other defective and sick people to the extent and according to their disability.
So any kid died before maturity or any other person after maturity in case of having no sense and ability of thinking and following righteous path, he will not be judged at the day of Judgement for hell or Heaven, his place is heaven.
Thanks for your concern.
thanks for your kind words.
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You mean god is like your school teacher. Well the biggest difference between the two incidents is that your school teacher did not made you. you are not the school teacher's creation. (Shit! you sounded like that stupid Zakir there buddy, bringing in a stupid argument).
Your school teacher tested you because they are not sure. So, your god test you because he is not sure. Then how come he is all mighty? and knows everything, when he does not know the simple fact what kind of person you are (remember you are his creation)?
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If you are interested I'm gonna continue this conversation from a theistic view.
One cannot assume that a certain task is carried out for a specific reason. All the views are subjective and a person will come to a conclusion based on what he observe and experience in life. You can safely state that the tests you faced in life were carried out to test your knowledge, ability or because your teacher is not sure of what you have learned. This is logical to you since that is what you have experienced. But it does not mean that every test in the world is carried out for that same reasons. If you assume the allmighty GOD, then you must agree that an omniscience GOD will have logic beyond our comprehension. If there is a test, assuming reasons for it based on your view is not logical.
The example is to explain a point. Does not mean that two entities involved in should have the same attributes. Example: We can say that the shape of Jupiter is closer to the shape of a cricket ball. Here we are not trying to compare Jupiter to the ball, but we compare the shape of the two objects.
One cannot assume that a certain task is carried out for a specific reason. All the views are subjective and a person will come to a conclusion based on what he observe and experience in life. You can safely state that the tests you faced in life were carried out to test your knowledge, ability or because your teacher is not sure of what you have learned. This is logical to you since that is what you have experienced. But it does not mean that every test in the world is carried out for that same reasons. If you assume the allmighty GOD, then you must agree that an omniscience GOD will have logic beyond our comprehension. If there is a test, assuming reasons for it based on your view is not logical.
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