සෝවාන් ඵලයට පමුණවන සතිපට්ඨානය හෙවත් යෝනිසෝමනසිකාරය

[MalSeven]

What is the external and internal sensors here?, What is the issue of milk getting involved? What is the issue of all of these? I dont see any issue and not clear what you are trying to show.

Lets keep this in conventional (sammuthi) level. No religions involved. Just regular stuff.

External sensors are 5 sensors except mind. There is no problem with any of these it is the approach that is deferent. I am trying to show how to solve a problem introversively.

Sure

Ok, can you show step by step how you verify milk that person talks is blue or not through your introverted method?

again, conventional level

This is an expectation cannot be fulfilled Mr. Rosh remember this is introverted, main difference is nothing to show and tell, only to be seen by you. It’s a matter of going to a state where the color of milk no longer becomes a problem or relevant, not sure you’ve got my point here. This is an introverted process, so the outcome remains internally only effects may be seen externally, i.e. the person has no urge to find out about the color of milk. I know it sound wired because it is not the outcome you expect from an extroverted point of view. In other words,

ok, no problem. A proper answer to the previous question would solve these hopefully.

Ok, hope I gave a proper answer

Physical mean, conventional. No, "mama" etc..

"problem is we can’t keep it at electron and wave-particle duality"

What do you mean by this?

Why do you wanna freeze? What happen when you freeze?

Ok, see the pen on your desk, do you agree that the pen is part of a cycle and it is in the process of becoming something? Do you think the matter of that pen will ever stop from becoming something? Will it ever stop at any point? i.e. I am a biscuit now and I will be a biscuit forever…

So why do you call it a pen? this is because you name the structure you see as a pen at every mind that comes and goes in fraction of time. Pen is still keep changing but your mind keeps seeing the same pen until your sensors can sense a change big enough to say this is not a pen anymore. Now you have frozen a pen based on a bunch of characteristics determined by your distorted sensors while the pen is in a continues change. Got it this time?

What does change his gathi while listening to bana?
What is vineewarana mohotha?
Why cant someone have a vineewarana mohotha later (after listening to bana)?

His ගති remains intact it can have and effect on the minds around him like relaxing music calms you down.
Vineewarana mohotha is a state of mind free of පංච නීවරණ
Because it is a natural law

 

[Emios]

Maybe you are haiving a virtual vieewarana mohotha

I keep going to a blank state where no data is there,cant even recall a person name should rest a little

 

[MalSeven]

I keep going to a blank state where no data is there,cant even recall a person name should rest a little

Good idea

 

[ek_rosh]

External sensors are 5 sensors except mind. There is no problem with any of these it is the approach that is deferent. I am trying to show how to solve a problem introversively.

Sure


This is an expectation cannot be fulfilled Mr. Rosh remember this is introverted, main difference is nothing to show and tell, only to be seen by you. It’s a matter of going to a state where the color of milk no longer becomes a problem or relevant, not sure you’ve got my point here. This is an introverted process, so the outcome remains internally only effects may be seen externally, i.e. the person has no urge to find out about the color of milk. I know it sound wired because it is not the outcome you expect from an extroverted point of view. In other words,

From my understandings introverted and extroverted are two different types of thinking or personalities. Introverted doesn't mean that you are free of using eyes, nose, so called external sensors. They still use sensors and gather information and build the farmwork to make conclusions and decisions. Still, they are based on information collected. As, you said, you are collecting information from kalyana mitra to verify your model at the current moment. The problem here is that your framework/model is built upon the information you received from the kalyana mitra. Your experiences may definitely verify your model too. But what if your kalyana mitraya is incorrect to begin with?.


For the sake of example, lets forget about the color. Let's say if someone wants to drink the milk and need to verify if it is spoiled or not first. How does your method work here?

Ok, hope I gave a proper answer

Ok, see the pen on your desk, do you agree that the pen is part of a cycle and it is in the process of becoming something? Do you think the matter of that pen will ever stop from becoming something? Will it ever stop at any point? i.e. I am a biscuit now and I will be a biscuit forever…

So why do you call it a pen? this is because you name the structure you see as a pen at every mind that comes and goes in fraction of time. Pen is still keep changing but your mind keeps seeing the same pen until your sensors can sense a change big enough to say this is not a pen anymore. Now you have frozen a pen based on a bunch of characteristics determined by your distorted sensors while the pen is in a continues change. Got it this time?

pen becoming something? Dont get it..

I think we should not jump here and there. Difficult to follow. If we can stick to electron thing at sammuthi level, that will be easy.

His ගති remains intact it can have and effect on the minds around him like relaxing music calms you down.
Vineewarana mohotha is a state of mind free of පංච නීවරණ
Because it is a natural law

Which natural law? never heard of it. Ppl can have moments of free of hindrance in deep meditation too.

 

[MalSeven]

From my understandings introverted and extroverted are two different types of thinking or personalities. Introverted doesn't mean that you are free of using eyes, nose, so called external sensors. They still use sensors and gather information and build the farmwork to make conclusions and decisions. Still, they are based on information collected. As, you said, you are collecting information from kalyana mitra to verify your model at the current moment. The problem here is that your framework/model is built upon the information you received from the kalyana mitra. Your experiences may definitely verify your model too. But what if your kalyana mitraya is incorrect to begin with?.


For the sake of example, lets forget about the color. Let's say if someone wants to drink the milk and need to verify if it is spoiled or not first. How does your method work here?

You are again thinking from a linear point of view. Idea of these type of personalities is one thing it has nothing to do with introverted problem solving, irrespective of personality, introverted problem solving can be done with the right mindset. Again, verification here is not linear, so whole system including the kalyana mithra verified in one go. There is a problem if it doesn’t happen.

Again, the same theory applies but you have to be sensible enough to apply the methodology where it suits. I wouldn’t apply introverted problem solving something like tasting milk or finding the color of it. Normally introverted problem solving used in philosophical level problems.

pen becoming something? Dont get it..

I think we should not jump here and there. Difficult to follow. If we can stick to electron thing at sammuthi level, that will be easy.

Will the pen be a pen in 500yrs?

It is easier to explain using pen example because it’s within sensory threshold

Which natural law? never heard of it. Ppl can have moments of free of hindrance in deep meditation too.

That’s how it was explained to me and so far, matches the experience, that’s all I have to go by for now

How do you know that for sure re. hindrance free moments? Is it through your own experience?

 

[Emios]

Buduhamduruwo kimbuwathpura gihin mata mehe hulagath sepai kivve ai.

 

[MalSeven]

Buduhamduruwo kimbuwathpura gihin mata mehe hulagath sepai kivve ai.

ඒ ඒක සැප නිසානෙ මහත්තය, දුක් වේදනාව දැනෙනව නම් සුව වේදනාවත් දැනෙන්න ඕනිනෙ

 

[Emios]

ඒ ඒක සැප නිසානෙ මහත්තය, දුක් වේදනාව දැනෙනව නම් සුව වේදනාවත් දැනෙන්න ඕනිනෙ

Itin sapeth dukakne tibbe

 

[MalSeven]

Itin sapeth dukakne tibbe

එහෙම කොහෙද තියෙන්නෙ මහත්තය? සැප වේදනාව සැපයි, දුක් වේදනාව දුකයි

 

[Emios]

එහෙම කොහෙද තියෙන්නෙ මහත්තය? සැප වේදනාව සැපයි, දුක් වේදනාව දුකයි

E unata kimbulwathpura special une ai.gathi hindada?

 

[MalSeven]

E unata kimbulwathpura special une ai.gathi hindada?

අනික් තැන් වලට වඩා කිඹුල්වත්පුර සුළඟ සැපවත් වෙන හේතුවක් තියෙන්න ඇති මහත්තය, අනික ඕක සාහිත්‍ය රසාස්වාදයට add කරපු කෑල්ලක් වෙන්න ඉඩත් තියෙනව, එහෙමත් නැත්නම් සම්මුතියට අනුව කිව්ව වෙන්න බැරිද?

 

[Emios]

අනික් තැන් වලට වඩා කිඹුල්වත්පුර සුළඟ සැපවත් වෙන හේතුවක් තියෙන්න ඇති මහත්තය, අනික ඕක සාහිත්‍ය රසාස්වාදයට add කරපු කෑල්ලක් වෙන්න ඉඩත් තියෙනව, එහෙමත් නැත්නම් සම්මුතියට අනුව කිව්ව වෙන්න බැරිද?

Rahat unama favourites tiyenna berida.asama kemak.yanna asama place ekak wage.

 

[MalSeven]

Rahat unama favourites tiyenna berida.asama kemak.yanna asama place ekak wage.

පුළුවන් මගෙ හිතේ මහත්තය, මමත් අහල තියෙනව එහෙම අවස්ථා

 

[ek_rosh]

Rahat unama favourites tiyenna berida.asama kemak.yanna asama place ekak wage.

I dont think it is favoritism. Let's say you go to two places, one is hot humid, the other is mild less humid. You are comfortable being in the 2nd place. Same goes for arihats.

---

You are again thinking from a linear point of view. Idea of these type of personalities is one thing it has nothing to do with introverted problem solving, irrespective of personality, introverted problem solving can be done with the right mindset. Again, verification here is not linear, so whole system including the kalyana mithra verified in one go. There is a problem if it doesn’t happen.

Yes, I understand what you mean, but although the verification is not linear, you are still depending on the accuracy of the information that you receive from the second person to build up your framework.

For example, let's say there are too teachers (kalyana mithra) A and B.

A has already experienced the enlightment and he knows how to get their including road marks.
B has experienced something else (not nirvana), but he is confident that it was nirvana. He knows how to get there (to what he thinks nirvana) and also the milestones.

Now, the person C goes to A. C listen to A and builds up his introverted framework. Then he practices and yes, his experience follows his framework too.

Now, the person D goes to B and listend to B carefully and makes the model. His experience follows and tally his model perfectly as well.

If you see, there both ppl will go along their path with their introverted framework. They will verify their stuff nonlinear ways as you say.

Now you tell me how would the person D get to know that he is going on a wrong path?

Again, the same theory applies but you have to be sensible enough to apply the methodology where it suits. I wouldn’t apply introverted problem solving something like tasting milk or finding the color of it. Normally introverted problem solving used in philosophical level problems.

You said, these are used in ayurveda and other practical fields. Can you give me a proper example from one of these practical fields, in that way I know that you are not saying something you made up from nowhere?

Will the pen be a pen in 500yrs?

It is easier to explain using pen example because it’s within sensory threshold

OfCourse a pen can be a pen in 5000 yrs. Why not?

That’s how it was explained to me and so far, matches the experience, that’s all I have to go by for now

How do you know that for sure re. hindrance free moments? Is it through your own experience?

OK, now this is also ending up with something non logical that is personal to your experience where nobody knows the accuracy of.

BTW, who explained it to you?
How do you know if it is correct just because someone explain and your experience (before sowan) matching with it.

1.
නැවත එක් දවසක්හි ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයා අවුත් එක් තරුණ භික්ෂුවක් ඩැහැගත්තේ ය. එවිට ම ඒ භික්ෂුව “ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයෙක් ස්වාමීනි! ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයෙක් ස්වාමීනි!!” යයි කෑගැසීය. සෙසු භික්ෂූන් වහන්සේලා ද ඒ ශබ්දය අසා සැරයටි ගිනි හුල් ආදිය හැරගෙන ඒ භික්ෂුව මුදවා ගැනීමට වෑයම් කළාහු ය. එහෙත් ව්‍යාස්‍රයා භික්ෂූන්ට යා නො හැකි තැනකට ඒ භික්ෂුව ගෙන ගොස් එක් තැනක තබා ගෙන කකුල්වල මාපටැඟිලිවල සිට කන්ට පටන් ගත්තේ ය. භික්ෂුහු ද අහෝ! සත්පුරුෂය දැන් ඉතින් අපට කළ හැකි උදව්වක් නැත. මෙය භික්ෂුවකගේ ශක්ති විශේෂය වූ චිත්ත බලය මත කරගත යුතු අවස්ථාවකි. එහෙයින් සතිපට්ඨාන භාවනායෙහි යෙදෙන්න” යයි අවවාද කළහ. ඒ භික්ෂුව ද ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයා විසින් කනු ලැබීමේ දී ඇති වූ දරුණු දුක් වේදනාව මෙනෙහි කරමින් ප්‍රීතිමෝදය උපදවා ඒ වේදනාව විෂ්කම්භනය කොට (දුරුකොට) එකෙණෙහි පහළ වූ නාම රූප ධර්මයන් විදර්ශනා නුවණින් බලා ගොස් ඇටය දක්වා කෑ කල්හි සෝවාන් බවට ද, දනහිස් දක්වා කෑ කල්හි සකදාගාමි බවට ද, නාභිය දක්වා කෑ කල්හි අනාගාමී බවට ද, හෘදය වස්තුවට සමීප වනවිට සිව්පිළිසිඹියා රහත් බවට ද පැමිණ සියලු සංසාරික දුකින් මිදුනුසේක.


2.
බණ ඇසීම් ආදියෙන් ඒ ධර්මයන් දැනගත් තැනැත්තා විසින් යම්කිසි විවේක ස්ථානයකට එළඹ තමා දැන සිටින පරිද්දෙන් පඤ්චස්කන්ධය හා පඤ්චස්කන්ධයා ගේ අනිත්‍යාදි ලක්ෂණ ද නැවත නැවත නුවණින් විමසන්නට පටන් ගත යුතු ය. එසේ නැවත නැවත විමසීමට විදර්ශනා භාවනාව ය යි කියනු ලැබේ.

3.
මෙතැන්හි එකී ධර්මයන් උපදවා ගතයුතු ප්‍රතිපත්තිය ක්‍රමයෙන් ඉන්ද්‍රිය සංවර - තප - බොධි - සම්බනිස්සග්ග ය යි පිළිවෙලින් ගළපා ගත යුතු ය. ඇස, කණ, නැහැය, දිව, කය, සිත යන මේ ඉන්ද්‍රිය සය සිහියෙන් රැකගන්නා යෝගාවචරයා තුළ, ලක්ඛනාහාර නයින් සතර සංවර සීලය ම ඇති විය යුතු ය. සීලයෙහි පිහිටි යෝගී පුද්ගලයා කෙලෙස් තවන-තපෝ ගුණයෙන් යුත්ත ව විවේකස්ථානයකට පැමිණ විදර්ශනා වඩන කල්හි, කාමාවචර කුශල චිත්තයෙහි සති, ධම්මවිචය, වීරිය, පීති ආදී බොධ්‍යඞ්ග ධර්ම තාවකාලිකව පහළ වෙයි. එයට අනතුරුව උපදනා මාර්ග චිත්තයෙහි ඒ ධර්ම ස්ථිරව පහළ වෙයි. එකී ලෞකික-ලෝකෝත්තර බෝධ්‍යඞ්ග සියල්ල පිඬුකොට එය චතුස්සත්‍යාවබෝධයට උපකාර වන නිසා බෝධි ය යි කියනු ලැබේ. මෙහි සබ්බනිස්සග්ග යනු සියල්ල අතහැර දැමීම ය යි කියන ලද නිර්වාණ ය යි. ඉන්ද්‍රිය-තප-බෝධි යන මේ ධර්මයන් වැඩි දියුණු වීමෙන් කිලෙස වට්ටය සහමුලින් පහව ය යි. කිලෙස වට්ටය පහ ව යෑමෙන් කම්ම වට්ටය ද, එයට අනතුරු ව විපාක වට්ටය ද, යන මේ වට්ට තුන පහව යෑමෙන් සබ්බ-නිස්සග්ග සංඛ්‍යාත නිර්වාණය ප්‍රත්‍යක්ෂ කළ යුතුය යනු “නාඤ්ඤත්‍ර බොජ්ඣා” යන ආදී ගාථාවේ අදහස යි. ( දෙවපුත්ත සංයුක්තයෙහි සුබ්‍රහ්ම සූත්‍රය)


These are some examples, to show one can attain sowan-pala while NOT listening to bana.

If you take a breath and see carefully you will see that your framework is failing on you many occasions. If my framework cannot explain simple stuff like this and prajna in sowan-magga that we talked before, etc, I would strongly go back and check what and where the problem is.
------ Post added on Mar 2, 2023 at 1:54 AM

 

[MalSeven]

Yes, I understand what you mean, but although the verification is not linear, you are still depending on the accuracy of the information that you receive from the second person to build up your framework.

For example, let's say there are too teachers (kalyana mithra) A and B.

A has already experienced the enlightment and he knows how to get their including road marks.
B has experienced something else (not nirvana), but he is confident that it was nirvana. He knows how to get there (to what he thinks nirvana) and also the milestones.

Now, the person C goes to A. C listen to A and builds up his introverted framework. Then he practices and yes, his experience follows his framework too.

Now, the person D goes to B and listend to B carefully and makes the model. His experience follows and tally his model perfectly as well.

If you see, there both ppl will go along their path with their introverted framework. They will verify their stuff nonlinear ways as you say.

Now you tell me how would the person D get to know that he is going on a wrong path?

Let’s assume the following, I hope you find them reasonable

• Both C and D are expecting nirvana
• There is only one nirvana
• Purpose of introverted framework is not only to find an answer to a specific question, but also to verify the question, answer and entire ecosystems around it
• Both C and D are intelligent enough and got all the required information from their respective teaches

Based on above, you see that the C will successfully verify an entire ecosystem
D will follow B, but he will not verify an entire ecosystem, he will notice that it has holes when comparing to his own reality, therefore he will also notice the information B provided is also incorrect.

You said, these are used in ayurveda and other practical fields. Can you give me a proper example from one of these practical fields, in that way I know that you are not saying something you made up from nowhere?

How do you think our ancestors knew that a certain tree, part of a tree or a chemical compound heals a decease? Do you think our ancestors tried all these items around them to see what works? They had information on how to map characteristics of a decease to a set of opposite characteristics of such an item in their environment. Because this is an ecosystem, they knew how it should be administered as well, remember these ecosystems has no holes.

Our traditional medicine is an entire ecosystem influenced by dhamma. When you know enough you can explain all this via the characteristics (ගති) created by patichchasamuppada. But that’s not something I can write in a forum...

Do you honestly believe that someone like me can come up with something like this? I am flattered that you think of me that way , but this is way beyond the level of my intelligence.

OfCourse a pen can be a pen in 5000 yrs. Why not?

So, you are saying that the pen you bought last year is in same condition? Not a single atom of it changed?

OK, now this is also ending up with something non logical that is personal to your experience where nobody knows the accuracy of.

BTW, who explained it to you?
How do you know if it is correct just because someone explain and your experience (before sowan) matching with it.

1.
නැවත එක් දවසක්හි ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයා අවුත් එක් තරුණ භික්ෂුවක් ඩැහැගත්තේ ය. එවිට ම ඒ භික්ෂුව “ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයෙක් ස්වාමීනි! ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයෙක් ස්වාමීනි!!” යයි කෑගැසීය. සෙසු භික්ෂූන් වහන්සේලා ද ඒ ශබ්දය අසා සැරයටි ගිනි හුල් ආදිය හැරගෙන ඒ භික්ෂුව මුදවා ගැනීමට වෑයම් කළාහු ය. එහෙත් ව්‍යාස්‍රයා භික්ෂූන්ට යා නො හැකි තැනකට ඒ භික්ෂුව ගෙන ගොස් එක් තැනක තබා ගෙන කකුල්වල මාපටැඟිලිවල සිට කන්ට පටන් ගත්තේ ය. භික්ෂුහු ද අහෝ! සත්පුරුෂය දැන් ඉතින් අපට කළ හැකි උදව්වක් නැත. මෙය භික්ෂුවකගේ ශක්ති විශේෂය වූ චිත්ත බලය මත කරගත යුතු අවස්ථාවකි. එහෙයින් සතිපට්ඨාන භාවනායෙහි යෙදෙන්න” යයි අවවාද කළහ. ඒ භික්ෂුව ද ව්‍යාඝ්‍රයා විසින් කනු ලැබීමේ දී ඇති වූ දරුණු දුක් වේදනාව මෙනෙහි කරමින් ප්‍රීතිමෝදය උපදවා ඒ වේදනාව විෂ්කම්භනය කොට (දුරුකොට) එකෙණෙහි පහළ වූ නාම රූප ධර්මයන් විදර්ශනා නුවණින් බලා ගොස් ඇටය දක්වා කෑ කල්හි සෝවාන් බවට ද, දනහිස් දක්වා කෑ කල්හි සකදාගාමි බවට ද, නාභිය දක්වා කෑ කල්හි අනාගාමී බවට ද, හෘදය වස්තුවට සමීප වනවිට සිව්පිළිසිඹියා රහත් බවට ද පැමිණ සියලු සංසාරික දුකින් මිදුනුසේක.


2.
බණ ඇසීම් ආදියෙන් ඒ ධර්මයන් දැනගත් තැනැත්තා විසින් යම්කිසි විවේක ස්ථානයකට එළඹ තමා දැන සිටින පරිද්දෙන් පඤ්චස්කන්ධය හා පඤ්චස්කන්ධයා ගේ අනිත්‍යාදි ලක්ෂණ ද නැවත නැවත නුවණින් විමසන්නට පටන් ගත යුතු ය. එසේ නැවත නැවත විමසීමට විදර්ශනා භාවනාව ය යි කියනු ලැබේ.

3.
මෙතැන්හි එකී ධර්මයන් උපදවා ගතයුතු ප්‍රතිපත්තිය ක්‍රමයෙන් ඉන්ද්‍රිය සංවර - තප - බොධි - සම්බනිස්සග්ග ය යි පිළිවෙලින් ගළපා ගත යුතු ය. ඇස, කණ, නැහැය, දිව, කය, සිත යන මේ ඉන්ද්‍රිය සය සිහියෙන් රැකගන්නා යෝගාවචරයා තුළ, ලක්ඛනාහාර නයින් සතර සංවර සීලය ම ඇති විය යුතු ය. සීලයෙහි පිහිටි යෝගී පුද්ගලයා කෙලෙස් තවන-තපෝ ගුණයෙන් යුත්ත ව විවේකස්ථානයකට පැමිණ විදර්ශනා වඩන කල්හි, කාමාවචර කුශල චිත්තයෙහි සති, ධම්මවිචය, වීරිය, පීති ආදී බොධ්‍යඞ්ග ධර්ම තාවකාලිකව පහළ වෙයි. එයට අනතුරුව උපදනා මාර්ග චිත්තයෙහි ඒ ධර්ම ස්ථිරව පහළ වෙයි. එකී ලෞකික-ලෝකෝත්තර බෝධ්‍යඞ්ග සියල්ල පිඬුකොට එය චතුස්සත්‍යාවබෝධයට උපකාර වන නිසා බෝධි ය යි කියනු ලැබේ. මෙහි සබ්බනිස්සග්ග යනු සියල්ල අතහැර දැමීම ය යි කියන ලද නිර්වාණ ය යි. ඉන්ද්‍රිය-තප-බෝධි යන මේ ධර්මයන් වැඩි දියුණු වීමෙන් කිලෙස වට්ටය සහමුලින් පහව ය යි. කිලෙස වට්ටය පහ ව යෑමෙන් කම්ම වට්ටය ද, එයට අනතුරු ව විපාක වට්ටය ද, යන මේ වට්ට තුන පහව යෑමෙන් සබ්බ-නිස්සග්ග සංඛ්‍යාත නිර්වාණය ප්‍රත්‍යක්ෂ කළ යුතුය යනු “නාඤ්ඤත්‍ර බොජ්ඣා” යන ආදී ගාථාවේ අදහස යි. ( දෙවපුත්ත සංයුක්තයෙහි සුබ්‍රහ්ම සූත්‍රය)


These are some examples, to show one can attain sowan-pala while NOT listening to bana.

If you take a breath and see carefully you will see that your framework is failing on you many occasions. If my framework cannot explain simple stuff like this and prajna in sowan-magga that we talked before, etc, I would strongly go back and check what and where the problem is.
------ Post added on Mar 2, 2023 at 1:54 AM

These were explained to me by my teacher.

This is again you are going through the linear path and trying to support your case from literature and method of reasoning known to you. Until you flip the switch, you will never get out of this paradox.

Of course, you find lots of holes in what I say because you are trying to map elements from one dimension to another.

So, its fine I know most of this is gibberish to you but at least you see there is something else (even if it is wrong from your point of view) exists. That’s all I wanted from all this. As I said, not here to change people.

 

[speedmalli]

යෝනි සෝමනසිකාරය කරනව ඉදල හිටල සොවාන් නම් උනේ නෑ හැබැයි ​

 

[ek_rosh]

Let’s assume the following, I hope you find them reasonable

• Both C and D are expecting nirvana
• There is only one nirvana
• Purpose of introverted framework is not only to find an answer to a specific question, but also to verify the question, answer and entire ecosystems around it
• Both C and D are intelligent enough and got all the required information from their respective teaches

Based on above, you see that the C will successfully verify an entire ecosystem
D will follow B, but he will not verify an entire ecosystem, he will notice that it has holes when comparing to his own reality, therefore he will also notice the information B provided is also incorrect.

As I said, there are no issues or holes in D's ecosystem. The experience he gained though the incorrect practices he performed tallies his incorrect ecosystem perfectly.

How do you think our ancestors knew that a certain tree, part of a tree or a chemical compound heals a decease? Do you think our ancestors tried all these items around them to see what works? They had information on how to map characteristics of a decease to a set of opposite characteristics of such an item in their environment. Because this is an ecosystem, they knew how it should be administered as well, remember these ecosystems has no holes.

Our traditional medicine is an entire ecosystem influenced by dhamma. When you know enough you can explain all this via the characteristics (ගති) created by patichchasamuppada. But that’s not something I can write in a forum...

Do you honestly believe that someone like me can come up with something like this? I am flattered that you think of me that way , but this is way beyond the level of my intelligence.

Ok, I have heard these too and now I understand where you are coming from. I understand ancestors used certain methods to find let's say medicines. Now, imagine you have found a papyrus about some ancient ayurvadic medicine for certain cures. Now, are you going to reinvent the wheel and verify their entire ecosystem to verify this medicine or practically apply the medicine, and see if it works?

Buddha discovered the nirvana (noble truths), path, milestones, etc. One can try the path and see if they can achieve what it claims or not. What you are saying is that to verify the path one has to verify the entire ecosystem including the credibility of nirvana, path and etc. Only a buddha can do what you say sir.

So, you are saying that the pen you bought last year is in same condition? Not a single atom of it changed?

OfCourse, atoms are changing. It happens every day. But I call it a pen today and I call it a pen tomorrow too.

These were explained to me by my teacher.

This is again you are going through the linear path and trying to support your case from literature and method of reasoning known to you. Until you flip the switch, you will never get out of this paradox.

Of course, you find lots of holes in what I say because you are trying to map elements from one dimension to another.

So, its fine I know most of this is gibberish to you but at least you see there is something else (even if it is wrong from your point of view) exists. That’s all I wanted from all this. As I said, not here to change people.

Well, apart from your teacher explanations and your own personal experience, I dont think there is anything solid to support your OP. Infact from what I posted clearly say about people who attained sowan pala while not listening to bana just like your claimed about people who attained sowan pala while listening. So, I dont think we need to drag this topic anymore, unless you have something else to show.

 

[MalSeven]

As I said, there are no issues or holes in D's ecosystem. The experience he gained though the incorrect practices he performed tallies his incorrect ecosystem perfectly.

You mean B’s ecosystem? Again, that’s not possible because at some point it will clash with D’s reality as he is not following a rule of nature, irrespective what the mental condition D has. In other words, B will never have an introverted ecosystem to begin with.

Ok, I have heard these too and now I understand where you are coming from. I understand ancestors used certain methods to find let's say medicines. Now, imagine you have found a papyrus about some ancient ayurvadic medicine for certain cures. Now, are you going to reinvent the wheel and verify their entire ecosystem to verify this medicine or practically apply the medicine, and see if it works?

Buddha discovered the nirvana (noble truths), path, milestones, etc. One can try the path and see if they can achieve what it claims or not. What you are saying is that to verify the path one has to verify the entire ecosystem including the credibility of nirvana, path and etc. Only a buddha can do what you say sir.

Haha , no not going to re-invent the wheel by any means, I said that to you as an example. What I said was while unearthing the ecosystem of nirvana you can see its connections to other ecosystems, as a way of verification.

Yes, you are right about what buddha see, we as shrawaks can only see the connections to outcomes of other ecosystems like I explained our traditional medicine, and this is how we verify using the information we know. Buddha is the only one who discovers the entire ecosystem of existence that is dhamma plus much more.

OfCourse, atoms are changing. It happens every day. But I call it a pen today and I call it a pen tomorrow too.

So theoretically speaking, how can you call it a pen without putting some thresholds? Because each moment it is in the process of becoming something, you call it a pen tomorrow because the change is still below the threshold. What if the pen gets burnt tomorrow and become ash and some gases? Not the change is above the threshold and you call it something else

Well, apart from your teacher explanations and your own personal experience, I dont think there is anything solid to support your OP. Infact from what I posted clearly say about people who attained sowan pala while not listening to bana just like your claimed about people who attained sowan pala while listening. So, I dont think we need to drag this topic anymore, unless you have something else to show.

Sure, we certainly can stop here, I have no issue at all, thank you for your input and your valuble time by the way.

 

[ek_rosh]

You mean B’s ecosystem? Again, that’s not possible because at some point it will clash with D’s reality as he is not following a rule of nature, irrespective what the mental condition D has. In other words, B will never have an introverted ecosystem to begin with.

Well, how do you know B doesnt have an introverted ecosystem to begin with? Through his ecosystem itself he doesnt see any problem.

Yes, you are right about what buddha see, we as shrawaks can only see the connections to outcomes of other ecosystems like I explained our traditional medicine, and this is how we verify using the information we know. Buddha is the only one who discovers the entire ecosystem of existence that is dhamma plus much more.

If someone wants to become an ayurvadic doctor, do you think they go through building and verifying their entire ecosystem?. This is exactly like dhamma, nobody needs to verify entire ecosystem, which is not possible anyways.

So theoretically speaking, how can you call it a pen without putting some thresholds? Because each moment it is in the process of becoming something, you call it a pen tomorrow because the change is still below the threshold. What if the pen gets burnt tomorrow and become ash and some gases? Not the change is above the threshold and you call it something else

Threshold is personal preference. One can call a pen is something writable. Another calls a pen even it cant write anymore. An archeologist may find a rusted broken pen and still call it a pen. One can see pen and ash as two different things. One can see both is the same, just matter.

 

[MalSeven]

Well, how do you know B doesnt have an introverted ecosystem to begin with? Through his ecosystem itself he doesnt see any problem.

How to know whether B is correct is subjective. One can just believe B based on his knowledge and what he says sounds right. Another such as myself wants B to prove his method through me (i.e. the reality I know), no matter how silly or irrational it looks like to a 3rd person. The way I see it is that if B can’t prove his method through me, then I consider him has wrong.

If someone wants to become an ayurvadic doctor, do you think they go through building and verifying their entire ecosystem?. This is exactly like dhamma, nobody needs to verify entire ecosystem, which is not possible anyways.

Don’t think you’ve got my point here; most Ayurveda doctors just follow the literature they don’t understand how the medicine works. That way the doctor can’t come up with a new medicine for an unknown disease.

Yes, dhamma is exactly like that, jut knowledge or literature is not going to help you, you need to know it through you, towards you. This is fully introverted. We don’t need to verify entire ecosystem the lord Buddha discovered that is just crazy, but we need to verify dhamma (four noble truths), the sub ecosystem to apply it to ourselves effectively.

This is what I am keep telling you, showing references from books or stating some mechanisms that you interpreted using your distorted mind sensor (not meant as a joke) is pointless, this is again you see these from an extraverted point of view.

Threshold is personal preference. One can call a pen is something writable. Another calls a pen even it cant write anymore. An archeologist may find a rusted broken pen and still call it a pen. One can see pen and ash as two different things. One can see both is the same, just matter.

Exactly my point, you pick up bunch of characteristics that matches your perception at each mind and name them as a thing, that thing is not same for everyone plus those characteristics keep changing while you are naming, so is there a thing to begin with?

Edit: In actual fact, you are calling a set of fabricated static characteristics (a thing) to slice of never ending process, this is what I meant by freezing the process.