Buddha: Atheist ?

Y2K

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Jun 11, 2007
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In your heart
Truth is Controversial​

A common view among some Buddhist is that Buddha said there was no such thing as God. Well, he also said there is no such thing as self also. Does that mean you don't exist just as God doesn't exist? Who or what is reading this if you don't exist?

The teachings of Buddha about God have to be taken within the context of the culture of his day. Buddha grew up and became enlightened in India. Even though this event happened approximately 2,500 years ago, the religious thought of his day was already ancient. The original religion of the Indus people was Brahman worship. This is confirmed in the Vedas.
I'm not using the term Hinduism because that is a British term coined around 1830 and it inaccurately lumped all of the religious and moral teaching of India under one very broad term.

All of the quotations used here to explain the teachings of Buddha come from The Gospel of Buddha

This best selling English book was Compiled from ancient records by Paul Carus, 1894

This book combines narrative of the life of Buddha coupled with his saying as recorded in the Tipitaka (Buddhist Sacred Scripture).

If Buddha claimed there is no such thing as God, why is he discussing God with Brahmans?

The Two Brahmans

Here he is quoted as saying:

"Thus," replied the Buddha,
"the Tathagata knows the straight path
that leads to a union with Brahma.
He knows it as one who has entered the world of Brahma and has been born in it.
There can be no doubt in the Tathagata." [30]

For those not familiar with these terms:

Tathagata: The 'mind of clear and pure reflection,' or 'reality + mental body in various state of mind. The Buddha mind-nature hidden within every being.

Brahma: The creative force of Brahman.

Brahman: The trancendent absolute being that pervades and supports all reality." Another definition of Brahman is that which is Absolute, fills all space, is complete in itself, to which there is no second, and which is continuously present in everything, from the Creator down to the lowest of matter. It, being everywhere, is also in each and every individual.

In the ancient Vedic religion, God was described as having three attributes. Creator, preserver and destroyer. Over time these three attributes were personalized and became known as the Gods of Brahma (creator) Vishnu (preserver) and Shiva (destroyer).

By Buddha claiming to know the path to Brahma he was also claiming to know the path to Brahman. Another way to understand the teachings of Buddha is that he taught that there are two realms. One is the Uncreated Realm and there is the Created Realm.

The Three Characteristics and the Uncreate

"There is, O monks, a state where there is neither earth,
nor water, nor heat, nor air;
neither infinity of space nor infinity of consciousness,
nor nothingness, nor perception nor non-perception;
neither this world nor that world, neither sun nor moon.
It is the uncreate. [9]

This definition would also apply to Brahman, for Brahman resides in the Uncreated Realm. However, even these words are poor approximations of the Uncreate.

Buddha also stated that he became one with the Uncreate.

"That, O monks, I term
neither coming nor going nor standing;
neither death nor birth.
It is without stability, without change;
it is the eternal which never originates
and never passes away.
There is the end of sorrow. [10]
...
"There is, O monks,
an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed.
Were there not, O monks,
this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed,
there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. [12]

"Since, O monks,
there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, and unformed,
therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed." [13]

When Buddha said he knew the path that lead to oneness to Brahma, he was stating that through Brahma one accesses Brahman (Uncreated Realm).

Another important concept to keep in mind when contemplating Buddha is that his quest and subsequent message was how to achieve the permanent cessation of Sorrow. Buddha discovered that unless complete non-attachment to desire and the material created world was achieved, one would still cling to the illusion of self and would inevitably be drawn back to the created realm and be reborn to explore whatever it was that was still desired.

This is explained in:

Enlightenment

There is self and there is truth.
Where self is, truth is not.
Where truth is, self is not.
Self is the fleeting error of samsara*;
it is individual separateness and that egotism which begets envy and hatred.
Self is the yearning for pleasure and the lust after vanity.
Truth is the correct comprehension of things;
it is the permanent and everlasting,
the real in all existence,
the bliss of righteousness. [17]

The existence of self is an illusion,
and there is no wrong in this world,
no vise, no evil,
except what flows from the assertion of self. [18]

The attainment of truth is possible only when self is recognized as an illusion.
Righteousness can be practised only when we have freed our mind from passions of egotism.
Perfect peace can dwell only where all vanity has disappeared. [19]

Blessed is he who has understood the Dharma.
Blessed is he who does no harm to his fellow-beings.
Blessed is he who overcomes wrong and is free from passion.
To the highest bliss has he attained who has conquered all selfishness and vanity.
He has become the Buddha, the Perfect One, the Blessed One, the Holy One. [20]

*SAMSARA: The world of illusion, the opposite of Nirvana. Samsara is where lust, desire, passion and attachment exist. Nirvana by definition is free of Samsara/Illusion.

Buddha discovered that everything within the Created realm is an illusion. Especially the concept of self. The reason we are caught in the cycle of death and birth is this: As long as we participate in the illusion called reality and believe in the individual self, we will constantly incarnate and play in the illusion. If, like Buddha we can achieve total non-attachment, we too can become one with the Uncreate. Once Buddha was free from desire and saw past the illusion of self, he became the omniscient enlightened one. In western terms he became totally one with God.

"Reality is an illusion; albeit a very persistent one!" Albert Einstein

So why do some Buddhist claim that Buddha said there is no such thing as God?

Once again the teachings of Buddha must be examined in context of the culture of his day.

Anathapindika

"Who is it that shapes our lives?
Is it Isvara, a personal creator?
If Isvara be the maker,
all living things should have silently to submit to their maker's power.
They would be like vessels formed by the potter's hand;
and if it were so, how would it be possible to practise virtue?
If the world had been made by Isvara
there should be no such thing as sorrow, or calamity, or evil;
for both pure and impure deeds must come from him.
If not, there would be another cause beside him,
and he would not be self-existent.
Thus, thou seest, the thought of Isvara is overthrown. [5]

This appears at first that Buddha has contradicted himself. He claimed to know the path to Brahma, yet discounts the existence of the Supreme Lord Isvara, the creator.

In the context of his day. Lord Isvara corresponds roughly to the western misconception of God as the white haired, long bearded almighty dispensing justice from his throne in heaven. The Lord Isvara is a personal, understandable God Being sitting on a throne that must be worshiped and appeased. Common practice of the day was making animal sacrifice to Lord Isvara.

Buddha also taught the futility of animal sacrifice which once again relates to the worship of Isvara.

Identity and Non-identity

Kutadanta said:
"I am told that thou teachest the law,
yet thou tearest down religion.
Thy disciples despise rites and abandon immolation,
but reverence for the gods can be shown only by sacrifices.
The very nature of religion consists in worship and sacrifice." [5]

Said the Buddha:
"Greater than the immolation of bullocks is the sacrifice of self.
He who offers to the gods his evil desires
will see the uselessness of slaughtering animals at the altar.
Blood has no cleansing power,
but the eradication of lust will make the heart pure.
Better than worshipping gods
is obedience to the laws of righteousness." [6]

Buddha's teachings were totally focused on how one achieves non-suffering. The laws of righteousness that he taught are called the eightfold path.

The Eighthfold path is Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.

Buddha's taught why righteousness is so important:

Chapter 53 -
"Verily, I say unto thee:
Not in the heavens,
not in the midst of the sea,
not if thou hidest thyself away in the clefts of the mountains,
wilt thou find a place where thou canst escape the fruit of thine evil actions. [63]

"At the same time thou art sure
to receive the blessings of thy good actions. [64]

Animal sacrifices to Lord Isvara will never bring an end to suffering. Only walking the path of righteousness will bring about the end of suffering. Just as all of the Created realm and your sense of individuality is an illusion, so is Lord Isvara.

Once the fullness of the teachings of Buddha are comprehended, one can understand that Buddha was not an Athiest nor did he become a god. No, he became one with the Eternal Absolute Uncreate. In western terms he became one with God.
 

ex-muslim Ahmed

Well-known member
  • Mar 7, 2009
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    There are plenty who feel "small" about their religion in this site. When you analyse by core teachings, the basic scriptures and interpretations given by scholars it is not difficult to understand the underlying philosophy behind any religion. the peoblem is in many religions, when you go to core teachings their is nothing much than a fairy tale. you pray, you believe in god and do some basic good to others and live your life to a set of liberal or strict set of rules..Not much thinking needed..believe thats sufficient...Voila! you die and wait for the J-day.. nothing much..

    And there is at least one religion where YOU really have to Strive hard, to get liberated. You have to observe certain path, a middle one- rejecting both extremes, but you have to work for the better end..no fairy tale -sugar baby endings..like real life. And top that the philosophy is deep, the scriptures contain rather sophisticated discourses..challenges your mind, always challenge your intellect, you will have to study hard and meditate to achive certain milestones before you achive final bliss...like real life..

    the problem is the one who feel "small" by their unsophisticated, fairy-tale like religion want to re-inforce their beliefs to them selves, since inside they also "feel" some thing is not right..

    so they resort to
    1) repeat the good ( this "good" can be found in any cultured society and no real need for religion to teach that, as well as some basic hygine)
    2) they claim that the religious leaders of these Rare religions with deep discourses and philosophies were also follower of their religion/he was also a their prophet/and his teaching are corrupted. BY this they TRY to claim final "copy rights " to them and " right" to final interpretation of these rare deep religions

    3) post contradicting information mixing ideas of two religion and dilute the imapct , mis represent, misinterpret the these deep rare religions , and there by again try to misdirect public and claim right to these religion try to make them a sub-religion of their own.


    I know why you post this. I have been following your posts. I know your beleifs. Dont resort to shameless tactics. it is Ugly! it smells. it says a lot about your deep down insecurites and doubts about your own faith. it shows how weak your faith is. how weak you are, as a person, a human being.
     
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    sudunone

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    May 23, 2009
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    Mmmmm. Y2K, That article is too long. :baffled:
    And this is not a source because this has been translated by a westerner without understanding Buddhism a long time ago.

    Let me correct a few things from the parts I read:

    Buddha didn't say gods don't exist. What the Buddha rejected was the concept of an omnipotent creator God. In sinhala and pali the word used for heavenly beings is 'deva', and 'deviyan wahanse' is a word born out of that. Buddhism says heavenly beings or devas exist. And Brahma is not used in the sense it is used in hindu/vedic literature. Brahmas are another group of heavenly beings who are in an even better realm than the devas.

    So, there are a lot of instances where devas and brahmas visited Buddha.

    That part about Created and Uncreated realms, as well as Being one with God/Brahman is also incorrect. "Creationism" is rejected. What Buddha taught was paticca samuppada/ dependent origination. The attainment of nibbana is a state where one is not reincarnated-it's not a place.

    Anathma concept will also be easier to understand once you have studied paticcasamuppada. There is no permanent soul that gets reborn. And we change from moment to moment.

    You cannot learn or understand all those things in one thread, or describe everything in one one thread. If you are keen to learn, find a good scholar who is a practicing Buddhist, or books/articles by those who have understood these concepts to a considerable degree. ask Kalyanamithra-he will give you several good sites. Or try dhamma talks and articles by ven. ajahn Sumedho, ajahn Brahmawanso etc.
     
    Jan 24, 2009
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    Once the fullness of the teachings of Buddha are comprehended, one can understand that Buddha was not an Athiest nor did he become a god. No, he became one with the Eternal Absolute Uncreate. In western terms he became one with God.

    :shocked::shocked::shocked: how the hell you assume this?? :no::no::no:
     
    Jan 24, 2009
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    did you read the full article? I didnt

    මේකේ තියෙන්නේ බුදු හාමුදුරුවෝ දෙවියෝ නෑ කිව්වලු, ඒ වුනාට දෙවියෝ එක්ක කතා කරාලු. බුදු වෙනවා කියන්නේ දෙවියන් හා එක්වීමලු ආදී වැල් බයිලා
     

    amila_90210

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    Jul 5, 2008
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    ෴පද පේළී෴
    මේකේ තියෙන්නේ බුදු හාමුදුරුවෝ දෙවියෝ නෑ කිව්වලු, ඒ වුනාට දෙවියෝ එක්ක කතා කරාලු. බුදු වෙනවා කියන්නේ දෙවියන් හා එක්වීමලු ආදී වැල් බයිලා
    :lol::lol: දෙයියෝ අපි විදින දුක දැනිලා අපි ව මැව්ව කියලා නැත්ද
     

    Y2K

    Member
    Jun 11, 2007
    11,007
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    In your heart
    There are plenty who feel "small" about their religion in this site. When you analyse by core teachings, the basic scriptures and interpretations given by scholars it is not difficult to understand the underlying philosophy behind any religion. the peoblem is in many religions, when you go to core teachings their is nothing much than a fairy tale. you pray, you believe in god and do some basic good to others and live your life to a set of liberal or strict set of rules..Not much thinking needed..believe thats sufficient...Voila! you die and wait for the J-day.. nothing much..

    And there is at least one religion where YOU really have to Strive hard, to get liberated. You have to observe certain path, a middle one- rejecting both extremes, but you have to work for the better end..no fairy tale -sugar baby endings..like real life. And top that the philosophy is deep, the scriptures contain rather sophisticated discourses..challenges your mind, always challenge your intellect, you will have to study hard and meditate to achive certain milestones before you achive final bliss...like real life..

    the problem is the one who feel "small" by their unsophisticated, fairy-tale like religion want to re-inforce their beliefs to them selves, since inside they also "feel" some thing is not right..

    so they resort to
    1) repeat the good ( this "good" can be found in any cultured society and no real need for religion to teach that, as well as some basic hygine)
    2) they claim that the religious leaders of these Rare religions with deep discourses and philosophies were also follower of their religion/he was also a their prophet/and his teaching are corrupted. BY this they TRY to claim final "copy rights " to them and " right" to final interpretation of these rare deep religions

    3) post contradicting information mixing ideas of two religion and dilute the imapct , mis represent, misinterpret the these deep rare religions , and there by again try to misdirect public and claim right to these religion try to make them a sub-religion of their own.


    I know why you post this. I have been following your posts. I know your beleifs. Dont resort to shameless tactics. it is Ugly! it smells. it says a lot about your deep down insecurites and doubts about your own faith. it shows how weak your faith is. how weak you are, as a person, a human being.


    Mind ur own smelling business brother , you are not Ex-Muslim fellow you r a Buddhist fellow
     

    sudunone

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    May 23, 2009
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    Perhaps we should have a policy about copy-pasting since some people tend to post articles and then refuse to take responsibility for them. This is why I think there should be a rule that requires the poster to add his own comments and observations regarding the article or the poster should give the link to the original article and make the post in his own words in the way he understood it.

    If you don't understand what I suggest, have a look at posts by Kalyanamithra/ela_eluwa. They do copy paste, but they usually add their own comments. Furthermore they take responsibility for what they post and if someone asks questions, they can back what they posted in their own words.
     

    Mononoke

    Member
    Sep 12, 2009
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    Perhaps we should have a policy about copy-pasting since some people tend to post articles and then refuse to take responsibility for them. This is why I think there should be a rule that requires the poster to add his own comments and observations regarding the article or the poster should give the link to the original article and make the post in his own words in the way he understood it.

    If you don't understand what I suggest, have a look at posts by Kalyanamithra/ela_eluwa. They do copy paste, but they usually add their own comments. Furthermore they take responsibility for what they post and if someone asks questions, they can back what they posted in their own words.

    This is the same article siraj one posted, the gospel of the Buddha has no references to the pali cannon so it's validity is questionable at best
     

    sudunone

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    May 23, 2009
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    Ha ha ha information sharing ,..... u decide ? if u r really strong Buddist u'll stay quite

    And you're a real strong..... what? Let me guess, a copy-paster?

    If I understood Buddhism fully, I'd be enlightened. :rofl: We are still trying to understand and learn our religion.

    Do you think you have understood your religion, whatever it is?