Firstly I don't know how you exactly counted 80% of Quran are good verses, I never said that..
But its OK, for the sake of argument lets just say it's 80%, so 20% is disputed.. confusing... it says god's gonna skin you alive but when someone ask you.. you point to that 80%
This is hilarious!
YES SINCE THESE VERSES ARE THERE PEOPLE MAY BE AFRAID TO SIN.. THAT IS UNDERSTOOD!
BUT GOD WILL STILL SKIN YOU! VIOLENCE.. VIOLENCE... AND VIOLENCE!!
BARBARIC!
Now you'll tell me that it's GOD's creation and he will do whatever he wants... then I will tell you that he couldn't control his own creation the way he wanted to... he ain't no almighty!
It is the secular world who is a major threat to any society or idealogy that shuns materialism and consumerism ! Given that Islam is one of them and that it makes up 1/6 th of the worlds population , they have decided 'to bring democracy' to wherever they deem appropriate !
How did you identified that Osama is not fighting for the cause that he claims?
Well if any one wants to interpret anything in anyway they want there are loopholes in every religion ! There is something call ijma-consensus- in Islam
where eminent scholars have clearly decided on whats allowed and whats not allowed ! When bin laden or any one for that matter clearly goes against the Quran by killing innocent people,children and women and is even condemned -in consensus- with the scholars of islam then its not islamic what he is doing ! (given that its really him thats doing everything)
Well... the difference is Buddhism doesn't say you are anybody's slaves
It's a shame really that even Prophet condoned slavery in Islam... but those aside..
Well if your a follower of the religion then you have submitted to yourself to following that religion and in principle that makes you a slave of it !
Slavery is not the western perception of shackles and chains you have instilled in you , but like you said .that for another day/
According to what you say here.. what do you mean "if we kill him unnecessarily" so there is necessary killinglicense to kill from the book itself that's what exactly we trying to say... why can't god just appear and punish the offender was it difficult for a god of Allah's stature?
Well... haven't you seen how LTTE paid with for their sins?
And there's a fine example of Karma in actio
Yes there is necessary killing.Like you mentioned the case of LTTE.When people warrant it , you are allowed to use force to curtail evil,or for capital punishment and such but like mentioned above its not unconditional !
Well you say karma has worked with LTTE , what about the ones that got away ? How is there wholesome justice without a Just and Severe God at the other side of life only by which Ultimate justice can be served !
Let me give you an example , Prabha is responsible for over a 1000 deaths ! Is ultimate justice served when karma strikes in takes Prabhas one life ? Is that ultimate justice ? A thousand lives to 1 ? We say he is not only responsible for the people he has killed but should also served for the dependants of those people because one man would have had many in his family looking up to him ! Hence we beleive in a Just God to whom we will be held accountable or seek ultimate justice from in the afterlife.
The concept of free will and worship go hand in hand ! Worship is called worship because you do it out of ur own free will ! If God was to come down and rectify everything then wheres the test.Wheres the element of rationale and faith ! It would be like, a teacher gives you a test and answers to the test already there. So if the teacher already gave the answers then?? its not a test. We view life as a gift from God so that we may worship Him and wil be adjudged fairly according to how we have lived here and our circumstances here.
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Firstly I don't know how you exactly counted 80% of Quran are good verses, I never said that..
But its OK, for the sake of argument lets just say it's 80%, so 20% is disputed.. confusing... it says god's gonna skin you alive but when someone ask you.. you point to that 80%
This is hilarious!
YES SINCE THESE VERSES ARE THERE PEOPLE MAY BE AFRAID TO SIN.. THAT IS UNDERSTOOD!
BUT GOD WILL STILL SKIN YOU! VIOLENCE.. VIOLENCE... AND VIOLENCE!!
BARBARIC!
barbaric....lol....God owns you dude...He can be as violent as He wants with you....but God is just...He won't just randomly bash you....
and i don't know if you noticed...but the world IS a violent place.....whether you like or accpet it or not....
stop saying the same things again and again..doesn't change the truth....
Now you'll tell me that it's GOD's creation and he will do whatever he wants... then I will tell you that he couldn't control his own creation the way he wanted to... he ain't no almighty!
once again dude ur ignoring what has already been clarified in the past....God created you...He gave you life....a family...everything you own or use He saw fit to give you....
God may have given you a car but where and how you drive it is up to you....and how you use the car....also effects how long it lasts etc....
think about it....
omg....dude do you forget things this easily or are you just mocking me....
Those who threaten Islamic way of life....and those who attack a country..neighborhood etc for no reason for no reason...and to protect the lives of those who cannot defend themselves....these are the situations a war is allowed in Islam....but only after all other options have been used (peace talks...trities (paying money/resources to leave you alone)...etc)
lol....and no if such a loop-hole existed and Osama used it...even i would be obligated to fight the Americans....such a loophole doesn't exist in Islam nor in the Quran...
take a look at the people following Osama....poor farmers and uneducated people are the like....like is said its the cultural thing...NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM.....GET THIS INTO UR FREAKING HEAD....sorry...
Well... the difference is Buddhism doesn't say you are anybody's slaves
It's a shame really that even Prophet condoned slavery in Islam... but those aside..
According to what you say here.. what do you mean "if we kill him unnecessarily" so there is necessary killing
like i said we belong to God....He created you...and so you are His slave not exactly slaves i guess but more like servants coz we have free will...just like the angels who are actual slaves....
lol..defend myself means...3 steps....a guy is attacking you...we are supposed to run away if we can....if the man manages to chase you into a situtaion where you cannot run...you may fight...if the attacker runs away or surrender...we should stop....this is the definition of defending...
Islam follows this with many rules....that over personal fights to wars etc...and don't ask stupid questions...Islam doesn't condone blind violence in any way shape or form....defending ones self isn't violence....its called survival....
karma in action?!!?
1) it was the sri lankan army who killed them...Buddhists etc all together...tthe LTTE in sri lanka did not die of old age....it was "violent action" as you say that saved us.....
2) If action had been taken sooner...we could have saved many lives who died for no reason.....we could have stopped the suffering of countless families...who were sent to the streets because the person who was earning for the family died....
or the countless children who lost their young age...and education as to LTTE kidnapped them?....they may now be old people...who lost their precious time...fighting a meaning less....what is karma's answer to these people?!?
this is the part of Buddhism i find absolutely ridiculous....sitting back watching the poor and needy suffer...waiting for some imaginary karma to do something....how is karma treating drug dealer who live life to the maximum in this life...then be a dog in the next life...whats the use of being a dog in the next life...if you don't even know why you ARE a dog in the first place....that dog and the drug dealer...are not the same people....they will not have the same memories etc...its a useless punishment for an innocent dog to suffer....
and about the waiting for ltte that sounds selfish and cowardly to me....to risk ones life to try and save another is a noble thing....its never bad if you managed to save their lives you have helped the whole generation of a family....if that young daughter dies there...how much suffering would there be....for the family...and for the future generations....what if she grows up to cure Aids etc...you never know....
i know what ur next question is...and no a moron who doesn't value a another life is not going to be of any use to society....i mean those you attack for no reason....
Irrelevant stuff here....
What I'm asking is... GOD created human.. gives them free will... and when they choose not to choose him.... he punishes!
Then what's the point of giving free will
just coz you don't want to admit it or understand it doesn't become irrelevant....
God gave you a free will....same reason he gave you hormones during your teenage years...so that you go after girls....
If God gives you something....how you use it...that is a test...
you were created by God...because He loved you....and wants to give you a chance...He gave you free will and the tools to chose your own life....what you do with that life....is upto you....and till the day you die...you will keep receiving...
the point of free will...is and always will be no matter how many times you ask...or in what format you ask....to test you....
ඔය කරගත්තේ... ඔයා හරාම්...
LMAO...trying to teach me my own religion....
according to the hadith(sermons in Islam) that comes....
it says in heaven we get beings that attend us....that is like how kings used to be attended in the past....
these beings are called horui or soemthing like that.....certain perverted religious leaders twisted the words around to a word that means "those types of girls" in arab...
so yes...no virgin we sleep with in heaven or anything like that...we get 72 servants....
if i get that many virgins i would have died sooner....
LMAO..seriously first it was akon...now him.....
if i didn't know right i would think sri lanka is some village in the backwaters of the African savanna with wild savages who chase away anyone who try to visit them....
Dude exactly ! if these morons don't want to listen to him they should shut the hell up and mind their own business ! just want to spoil sri lankas name by wanting to ban people just cos they have smtin against them.
a positive outlook is good and commendable....doesn't mean its real....this world is not a just place....and its not all rainbows...faeries and unicorns....you just have to step out into the streets to see that.....
and God only talks in relation to the real world...not made up world of roses etc....why this hardship...coz its a test....remember...
Don't talk about unicorns and rainbows.. because Islam is one of the religions that has lot of fairytales.. sweet ones too
Arab will turn into lush green meadow, Sun will rise from the west.. oh well!
Signs of the judgment day.. we are still waiting till sun rises from other side! No matter how you put it.. what's wrong is wrong... taking another's life is wrong there are no exceptions.. the moment you give exceptions its exploited.. Quran is the perfect example!
This is where it gets really LAME!
It's not about whether he will steal again.. how can you punish someone for his future misdeeds today? (unless you are Brad Pitt in Minority Report ofcourse
)You chop his limb off on the assumption that he will steal again.. what if he isn't?
Why? victim need to ask? Now I'm really getting suspicious about Allah's abilities here...
He is the GOD.. if he is in a situation he should know whether to punish the person or not.. why need a 2nd opinion?
Lets just forget about the people who get forgiven.... we are not concerned about them here.. we are concerned about the ones getting their skin peeled off by the GOD
Dont drag the discussion back to.. "Allah can forgive..." talk about people that Allah doesn't forgive.. its cruel.. for example... a Buddhist or a Hindu that refuse to accept Islam will definitely get roasted no matter how good they've done in their lives
We've had this discussion before... you told me that non-Muslim can go to heaven.. this is where its gets really confusing... if a Muslim's ultimate goal is to get to heaven and even a non-Muslims has a chance to get to heaven... then why follow Islam? what does Muslims in heaven get more that non-Muslim's don't?
More virgins perhaps?
Yeah these could be the after effects of such an indecent or worse... so does hanging the rapist solve the anger problem of the victim?
I can present cases of such offenders too where they really regret what they've done... and lived thier whole lives with guilty conscious.. and blah blah blah...
If you worried about releasing him back to society you could keep him in isolation, which is far better than chopping his parts off one by one
Adultery is indeed a crime, where have I not agreed with you on that?
However you did not provide an answer to the Polygamy issue I've raised..
Just now you talked about long term effects on rape victims, dont you feel there would be long term effects on children growing up knowing their father belong to many women and many other children?
Look who's talking about unicorns
If there's any unicorn here its the Allah... mind you.. Lord Buddha existed!
If you want reality let Allah appear out of nowhere and punish the criminals.. everyday.. on the spot.. from the verses of Quran he is quite capable of doing that, what is he waiting for? and then you can point fingers at Buddhism and utter your unicorn stories!
no unnecessary insults on the prophet please....and no the prophet loved kids.....he loved his only grand sons alot....he is said to have never cried at funerals except at the funerals of his grand sons and of other kids....
and he would tell parents not to hit or abuse their kids either....so yes he cared....and these are God's laws...not the prophet's....
Correct! he loved HIS kids.. err... Aisha was a bit too hot to ignore maybe!
Wonder where were GOD's law when he was humping the 9 year old?
You know I'm telling the truth.. he did hump a 9 year old you don't dare deny it!
coz once again same answer.....its a test....of what we do with our free will.....if he didn't want this violence etc...he would have kept us in Heaven with the angels..not in this murky earth....
if man wants to go to war with his free will....its man's fault....God doesn't not interfere with free will....
If GOD doesn't interfere with free will why punish disbelievers?
Like I said... there are many variables in this world that makes someone a criminal together with himself... the society he lives in and what he perceives as good and bad.. and who created all of this? GOD did...
If a combination of all this can make someone a criminal.. GOD definitely got his ingredients wrong for this universe as we know it... which brings us to the same conclusion over and over and over again....
A FAULTY CREATOR can only contributes to a FAULTY CREATION!
Don't just say Buddhism is sugar coated, explain why you say so!
If not you are just another blind-basher like the rest..
LMAO....that 72 virgins thing is a gag.....
i don't think its real.....nothing in Islam says that.....
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/72_Virgins
eternal erection also granted
Dude seriously...this is WAY too many quotes and end quotes to pull through...and i kind don't have the time... will do something about it...soon...
anyways i will answer the ones below at least for now....coz you trusted me to reply atleast something no?.....
Well the fairy tale angle doesn't pan out in Islam....its about the gritty earth and what God's plan for it is....the God who created this earth knows how we should live in it.....
and according to that God says justice is priority when someone wrongs another person....by words...or their deeds....
what is wrong is hurting someone else....without considering the victim's feelings or hard work....
if a man kills another in cold blood (for no reason)...the killer makes the family of the victim suffer....and he is responsible for what he did (that free will thing)....
and he should take responsibility for doing that crime...as right he should ask the family members of the victim etc to forgive him....they can impose some punishment on this man....or forgive him....
and God cannot forgive this man till the family of the victim or the victim himself forgives this man...coz God gave the free will to this man....and he committed the crime....and as i said the family suffers....
the victims have the say....coz they have been wronged....if they forgive...God can forgive this criminal as well....
as its is said in the Quran and Hadiths If we wrong God by not praying to Him etc...its between Him and you....and He may forgive you if you repent....
if you wrong another man.....that man has to forgive you...before God will forgive you....as you wronged a gift/loan (life, wealth..etc etc) God has given that man....
its common sense man...figure it out....
and no...we are not cutting his hands to prevent him from stealing again...you missing the whole point....
that type of punishment has many sides to it....
1) To make the man regret and repent his actions....
2) Reduce the criminals punishment in Hell...as he suffers on Earth..
3) As a lesson to others not to steal etc....
4) To give the victims a sense of justice.....(you can dress it however you want...but try being a victim of a thief then tell me)
5) To prevent him from steal IF he ever wanted to....
but as i said it usually doesn't come to this...and the criminals are usually forgive for their acts....
answer to second half in above....
but again...it is because....the victim is the one is wronged here not God....if you wronged God He is more than willing to forgive you if you repent....
i can't punch you then say sorry to the person walking next to you can i?....
will do something about it...soon...anyways i will answer the ones below at least for now....coz you trusted me to reply atleast something no?.....
Don't talk about unicorns and rainbows.. because Islam is one of the religions that has lot of fairytales.. sweet ones too
Arab will turn into lush green meadow, Sun will rise from the west.. oh well!
No matter how you put it.. what's wrong is wrong... taking another's life is wrong there are no exceptions.. the moment you give exceptions its exploited.. Quran is the perfect example!
Well the fairy tale angle doesn't pan out in Islam....its about the gritty earth and what God's plan for it is....the God who created this earth knows how we should live in it.....
and according to that God says justice is priority when someone wrongs another person....by words...or their deeds....
what is wrong is hurting someone else....without considering the victim's feelings or hard work....
if a man kills another in cold blood (for no reason)...the killer makes the family of the victim suffer....and he is responsible for what he did (that free will thing)....
and he should take responsibility for doing that crime...as right he should ask the family members of the victim etc to forgive him....they can impose some punishment on this man....or forgive him....
and God cannot forgive this man till the family of the victim or the victim himself forgives this man...coz God gave the free will to this man....and he committed the crime....and as i said the family suffers....
the victims have the say....coz they have been wronged....if they forgive...God can forgive this criminal as well....
as its is said in the Quran and Hadiths If we wrong God by not praying to Him etc...its between Him and you....and He may forgive you if you repent....
if you wrong another man.....that man has to forgive you...before God will forgive you....as you wronged a gift/loan (life, wealth..etc etc) God has given that man....
its common sense man...figure it out....
This is where it gets really LAME!
It's not about whether he will steal again.. how can you punish someone for his future misdeeds today? (unless you are Brad Pitt in Minority Report ofcourse
You chop his limb off on the assumption that he will steal again.. what if he isn't?
Why? victim need to ask? Now I'm really getting suspicious about Allah's abilities here...
He is the GOD.. if he is in a situation he should know whether to punish the person or not.. why need a 2nd opinion?
and no...we are not cutting his hands to prevent him from stealing again...you missing the whole point....
that type of punishment has many sides to it....
1) To make the man regret and repent his actions....
2) Reduce the criminals punishment in Hell...as he suffers on Earth..
3) As a lesson to others not to steal etc....
4) To give the victims a sense of justice.....(you can dress it however you want...but try being a victim of a thief then tell me)
5) To prevent him from steal IF he ever wanted to....
but as i said it usually doesn't come to this...and the criminals are usually forgive for their acts....
answer to second half in above....
but again...it is because....the victim is the one is wronged here not God....if you wronged God He is more than willing to forgive you if you repent....
i can't punch you then say sorry to the person walking next to you can i?....
Oh rele ??
FYI- MY forefathers hadn't done soo. Even if they did so, They dint preach a religion and asked me to follow him
Islams is growing, due to your hugh birth rate, not because its ethical or best or what ever
Simply bullshitting
to justify their barbaric leader
its derived from the horui the name given to a certain beings who are said to be granted as servants to people in heaven....
the word horui in Arabic has many different tongue twisting words....i don't think there is a similar thing like it in any other language....except in Japanese just that same words can mean other things by pronouncing it in different way....
that is why certain perverted mulla's use JUST the verse in the quran to try and change the meaning....
but basically its being called horui who serve as servants to people in heaven....like the servants of a king etc....
Simply bullshitting
more like same bullshit ego boost to ignoring facts.....
whether you accept it or not....this was wide spread in arab countries...it was cultural....and it was ok....as it was accepted in that society and it was nothing earth shattering for them....
Egyptians married off 12yo boys to 63yo women....
and vice versa.....
it was wide spread in ancient Rome.....Greece....Byzantine...you name it...
don't ask for proof now....except for Egyptians all we know about this is tales and stories of this happening....
basically it was normal then...at a certain point in history it was also ok to sleep with your mothers and sisters....now there is no social reason to do so...hence it seems inappropriate now....
its this same kind of "its yucky" reasoning that makes you attack Muhammad(pbuh) like this....
lol now the tongue twisters. lol
anyway enjoy the, virgins and make use of your eternal erectionFYI - Even 2 hours erection PERMANANTLY damage the contractile tissues of your penis
Better 2 learn how to use dildos, and fingers
lol now the tongue twisters. lol
FYI - Even 2 hours erection PERMANANTLY damage the contractile tissues of your penis
ah now ur just being a troll....
if i get that many virgins in heaven...i would have died ALOT sooner..trust me...lol....
Arab will turn into lush green meadow, Sun will rise from the west.. oh well!
Well almost all the predictions in the Quran 1400 years ago have come true and well based on rationale when 85 percent of whats predicted is and has come true then it is only wise to beleive that the rest will unfold in time!
So what your saying is when LTTE is shooting you , breaking your homes and taking your land we should just sit ant watch ? This point has been addressed above , thats its conditional and strict codes and guidelines have to be followed !
It's not about whether he will steal again.. how can you punish someone for his future misdeeds today? (unless you are Brad Pitt in Minority Report ofcourse
You chop his limb off on the assumption that he will steal again.. what if he isn't?
It is not in the prediction that he will steal again , it for the stealing that he has already done . And it is not blindly done for stealing chewing gums like you put it. there is a court of law and for severe cases.This will not only prevent him from trying again but when such stern punishment is implemented others who tend to do the same are force to think twice very hard
Why? victim need to ask? Now I'm really getting suspicious about Allah's abilities here...
He is the GOD.. if he is in a situation he should know whether to punish the person or not.. why need a 2nd opinion?
Because firstly when you commit a crime against some one you are impeaching his rights ! and it the victims pardon we seek first , this is one of the rights given to us by God !
Lets just forget about the people who get forgiven.... we are not concerned about them here.. we are concerned about the ones getting their skin peeled off by the GOD
Dont drag the discussion back to.. "Allah can forgive..." talk about people that Allah doesn't forgive.. its cruel.. for example... a Buddhist or a Hindu that refuse to accept Islam will definitely get roasted no matter how good they've done in their lives
Like mentioned above , the concept of hell or damnation for disbeleivers and heaven or nirvana (in budhism) is there in every religion ! In christianity you have to take Jesus as your saviour and in budhism you have to seek nirvana ! Else you are damned and lost in time reincarnation ! Islam doesnt differ in that !
Yeah these could be the after effects of such an indecent or worse... so does hanging the rapist solve the anger problem of the victim?
I can present cases of such offenders too where they really regret what they've done... and lived thier whole lives with guilty conscious.. and blah blah blah...
If you worried about releasing him back to society you could keep him in isolation, which is far better than chopping his parts off one by one
Well it serves justice to the victim ! If you ask a rape victim or a person whose family member has been a victim of rape or murder thats what he will say.so why the double standard ! These are laws that go intune with the natural order of things !
Correct! he loved HIS kids.. err... Aisha was a bit too hot to ignore maybe!
Wonder where were GOD's law when he was humping the 9 year old?
You know I'm telling the truth.. he did hump a 9 year old you don't dare deny it!
Because this is seen as the ultimate sin , to deject or reject the Giver of life ! and btw this concept of 'damnation' for disbeleivers is not unique to Islam alone so i guess you have to answer the same about budhism !
....
Please read the previous post . I guess this is your problem -
"The Internal Problem of Evil
The internal problem of evil presents its premises as follows:
1. A good God that is omnipotent exist
2. Evil exists
3. Therefore a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist'
from http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/20...sponse-to.html
A Philosophical & Theological Response to the 'Problem of Evil'
By Hamza Andreas Tzortzis
In the philosophy of religion ‘natural atheology’ is defined as the branch of philosophy that attempts to prove the central beliefs of theists (people who believe in a God) as false [1]. One of the most impressive and strongest arguments of natural atheology is to do with the problem of evil.
The problem of evil claims that it is unbelievable, if an omnipotent and good God exists, that he would permit so much pain and suffering in the world. The famous philosopher David Hume in his ‘Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion’ aptly puts it,
“Epicurus’s old questions are yet unanswered. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?”[2]
The problem of evil is without a doubt one of the key intellectual obstacles that a Muslim or theist has to overcome in order to be convinced that God exists (or convince others for that matter). There are two versions of the problem of evil, the internal problem of evil and the external problem of evil.
The internal problem of evil is presented as an argument whose premises the Muslim is committed to due to his belief in Islam. The external problem of evil is presented as an argument whose premises the Muslim is not committed to but can have good reasons to believe the premises to be true.
The Internal Problem of Evil
The internal problem of evil presents its premises as follows:
1. A good God that is omnipotent exist
2. Evil exists
3. Therefore a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist
H. J. McCloskey in his article ‘God and Evil’ summarises the problem well,
“Evil is a problem for the theist in that a contradiction is involved in the fact of evil, on the one hand, and the belief in the omnipotence and perfection of God on the other.”[3]
Responding to the Internal Problem of Evil
The first point that needs to be made is that statements (1) and (2) are not logically inconsistent as there is no apparent contradiction. For the atheist to jump to the conclusion that a good God that is omnipotent doesn’t exist is an unwarranted, unless he has assumed, in the words of Philosopher William Craig, “some hidden premises”[4]. These hidden premises seem to be the following,
4. If God is omnipotent, then he can create any world he wants
5. If God is good, then he prefers a world without evil
Statement (4) suggests that since God can create and do anything, then he can create free human beings who always decide to do the right thing and do not fall into evil or suffering. Statement (5) suggests that God is all good so much so that if he could create a world without evil and suffering he would. Otherwise he would himself be evil to prefer that humans experience evil and suffering.
The proponent of this version of the problem of evil has made some unjustified assumptions. These hidden premises make some daring assumptions; firstly it assumes a Christian type of God, one that is just good and omnipotent. Secondly it assumes that God doesn’t have any reasons to permit evil and suffering in the world.
Responding to the first assumption
Muslims do not only believe that God is just good and omnipotent. Muslims believe that part of God’s names and attributes include ‘the Just’, ‘the Severe in Punishment’, ‘the Wise’, ‘the Avenger’, and ‘the Compassionate’, amongst many others. So statements (1, 4 and 5) are inaccurate as the Muslim does not reduce God to parts, rather God is seen as one and unique in context of all his names and attributes. So if God was just good and omnipotent, then there may be problem in reconciling suffering and evil in the world. However if you include attributes such as ‘the Severe in Punishment’ and ‘the Wise’, these problems would not exist. Because perceived evil and suffering in the world can be due to,
• God’s punishment as a result of our sins and bad actions.
• God’s wisdom, as there may be divine wisdom in permitting evil and suffering. Even if we can’t evaluate what the wisdom is, it doesn’t mean it is not there. To argue such a thing would be a logical fallacy, known as the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). The story of Khidr which can be found in the 18th chapter of Qur’an from verses 60 to 82 is an eloquent account of how God’s wisdom, whether understood or not, has positive results and benefits for humanity.
In addition to this the Muslim can argue that the problem of evil is logically posterior to the existence of God. You need to establish that God exists first before attempting to reconcile who God is with our perception of reality, in this case, evil and suffering.
Lastly the meaning of the word ‘good’ attributed to God needs to be understood in a divine context. In general terms the word ‘good’ has a meaning that relates to human experience, whereas in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature. Therefore the underlying assumption that evil and a good God cannot coexist may be true with a Christian view of God. However it doesn’t apply to the Islamic concept of God as the atheist will have to reconcile evil and suffering with something that he cannot fully comprehend. So his premises are false due to his incorrect assumption that ‘good’ in the context of God is related to a human understanding of good.
Responding to the second assumption
A sufficient response to the second assumption is to provide a strong argument that God has justified reasons to permit suffering and evil in the world. The intellectual richness of Islamic Theology provides us with many reasons, some of which include:
1. The primary purpose of the human being is not happiness rather it is to know and worship God. This fulfillment of the divine purpose will result in everlasting bliss and happiness. So if this is our primary purpose other aspects of human experience our secondary. The Qur’an, the book of the Muslims states: "I did not create either jinn or man except to worship Me." [5]
2. God also created us for a test, and part of this test is to be tested with suffering and evil. The Qur’an mentions “The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving” [6]
3. Having hardship and suffering enables us to realise and know God’s attributes such as ‘the Victorious’ and ‘the Healer’. For example without the pain and suffering of illness we would not appreciate the attribute of God being ‘the Healer’. Knowing God is a greater good, and worth the experience of suffering or pain as it will mean the fulfillment of our primary purpose.
4. Suffering allows 2nd order good. 1st order good is physical pleasure and happiness and 1st order evil is physical pain and sadness. 2nd order goodness is elevated goodness such as courage and can only happen if suffering or evil exist. [7]
5. People can also suffer from past, present or future sins. God has knowledge of everything which is not contingent on time. Please refer to the story of Khidr in the Qur’an where it mentions Khidr’s reply to Prophet Moses “All this was done as a mercy from your Lord. What I did was not done by my own will. That is the interpretation of those actions which you could not bear to watch with patience.”[8]
6. God has given us free will, and free will includes choosing evil acts. [9]
The external problem of evil
The internal problem of evil fails to convince, however the external problem of evil seems more persuasive because it seems to acknowledge the co-existence of God and evil in the world, but denies God’s existence due to the level of the evil in the world. The external problem of evil argues the following:
1. A good God that is omnipotent exists
2. Gratuitous evil exists
3. Therefore, God does not exist
For the Muslim statement (2) is subjective and not entirely true. The Muslim will believe that evil exists, but not that gratuitous evil exists, and since this is based upon human subjectivity then the external problem of evil carries no weight. The proponent of this argument will have to show that gratuitous evil or evil itself are objective without reference to human subjectivity.
The essential problem with this argument is shown in the following questions:
• What makes our value judgments objectively true?
• What are our definitions of gratuitous evil?
The proponent of the problem of evil is faces a problem because God is required a rational basis for objective good and evil (whether gratuitous or not). Without God these terms are relative as there is no conceptual anchor, apart from God himself, which transcends human subjectivity. So the terms evil and good make no sense or are just ephemeral without God. Therefore in order for the atheist’s premise to make objective sense, God’s existence is necessary. In this light the Muslim or theist may argue:
1. If God did not exist, then objective moral values would not exist
2. Evil exists
3. Therefore objective moral values exists (from premise 2)
4. Therefore, God exists
Explaining the key premise: Premise (1)
The question about objective good or bad, in other words objective morality, has been discussed by many theists and non-theists alike. Many have concluded that there is no objective morality without God. Humanist philosopher Paul Kurtz aptly puts it,
“The central question about moral and ethical principles concerns this ontological foundation. If they are neither derived from God nor anchored in some transcendent ground, are they purely ephemeral?”[10]
Paul Kurtz is right because God is the only conceptual anchor that transcends human subjectivity, so without God there is no rational basis for objective morality. In God’s absence, there are only two possible alternative conceptual foundations.
• Social pressures
• Evolution
Both social pressures and evolution provide no objective basis for morality as they both claim that our morality is contingent on changes: biological and social. Therefore morality cannot be binding, in other words true regardless of who believes in them.
Therefore without God there is no objective basis for morality. God as a concept is not subjective therefore having God as basis for morality makes them binding and objective, because God transcends human subjectivity. The following statement by Richard Taylor, an eminent ethicist, correctly concludes,
“Contemporary writers in ethics, who blithely discourse upon moral right and wrong and moral obligation without any reference to religion, are really just weaving intellectual webs from thin air; which amounts to saying that they discourse without meaning.”[11]
Therefore evil in the world actually proves that God exists. This argument shows how God and evil can co-exist without attempting to explain why. So in a rhetorical response to the atheist the Muslim or theist can pose the following question,
“How can the atheist formulate an argument against the existence of God when God is required as an objective basis for the formulation of the argument in the first place?!”
At first sight the problem of evil seems to present insuperable difficulties for the Muslim. However under intellectual scrutiny the problem of evil actually fails to present a convincing argument.
Concluding with the Emotional Argument
There is a well known Buddhist saying that states ‘desire causes suffering ‘and since human beings desire then we will always suffer. Whether this is true or not clearly reinforces our intuition that we will suffer and experience evil at some point in our lives. This suffering can be the making of our own hands, other peoples or external forces like natural disasters. A consequence of this suffering is that many of us may fall prey to our emotional dispositions thereby questioning God’s existence or entering into a state of some form psychological malady.
Islamic Theology however provides the conceptual ‘tools’ necessary for the Muslim to overcome this problem. Islamic Theology is derived from two main sources, the Qur’an and the hadith literature. The Qur’an is a divine book that Muslims believes to be the word of God, and the hadith are divinely inspired statements attributed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). The following verses from the Qur’an and sayings from hadith provide all the necessary comfort for the Muslim.
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said:
"Amazing is the affair of the believer, verily all of his affair is good and this is not for no one except the believer. If something of good/happiness befalls him he is grateful and that is good for him. If something of harm befalls him he is patient and that is good for him." [12]
“Anyone who dies of the plague is a martyr. Anyone who dies of a stomach illness is a martyr. Anyone who drowns is a martyr.” [13]
"There are seven classes of martyrs except the one who is killed while fighting in the cause of God: one who dies in plague is a martyr; one who dies due to drowning is a martyr; one who is killed of Zat al-Janb disease (a disease that attacks ribs and causes inner ulcerations) is a martyr; one who dies of diseases of stomach is a martyr; one who is killed by fire is a martyr; one who is crushed under a wall is a martyr; and a woman who dies while delivery (or pregnancy) is a martyr." [14]
"No calamity befalls a Muslim but that Allah expiates some of his sins because of it, even though it were the prick he receives from a thorn." [15]
The Qur’an says,
“Do you think that you will enter paradise without any trials while you have known the examples of those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with suffering and adversity and were so violently shaken up that even the Prophet and the believers with him cried out: ‘When will God’s help come?’ Be aware, God’s help is close.” [16]
“Surely with every difficulty there is relief. Surely with every difficulty there is relief.” [17]
“Let there rise from among you a band of people who should invite to righteousness, enjoin good and forbid evil: such are the one, who shall be successful.” [18]
Since the Muslim is intellectually convinced that these statements are from God, then it follows they are truth claims that not only comfort the Muslim, but fills his heart with tranquility.
barbaric....lol....God owns you dude...He can be as violent as He wants with you....but God is just...He won't just randomly bash you....
and i don't know if you noticed...but the world IS a violent place.....whether you like or accpet it or not....
stop saying the same things again and again..doesn't change the truth....
Define TRUTH first!
Prove it is truth first! then we can talk!
once again dude ur ignoring what has already been clarified in the past....God created you...He gave you life....a family...everything you own or use He saw fit to give you....
God may have given you a car but where and how you drive it is up to you....and how you use the car....also effects how long it lasts etc....
think about it....
You haven't clarified anything yet...
Why god created us? what does GOD gets from creating us?
Sorry.. back to square one now..
omg....dude do you forget things this easily or are you just mocking me....
Those who threaten Islamic way of life....and those who attack a country..neighborhood etc for no reason for no reason...and to protect the lives of those who cannot defend themselves....these are the situations a war is allowed in Islam....but only after all other options have been used (peace talks...trities (paying money/resources to leave you alone)...etc)
lol....and no if such a loop-hole existed and Osama used it...even i would be obligated to fight the Americans....such a loophole doesn't exist in Islam nor in the Quran...
take a look at the people following Osama....poor farmers and uneducated people are the like....like is said its the cultural thing...NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM.....GET THIS INTO UR FREAKING HEAD....sorry...
So are you saying that America is right ti attack all countries? especially Muslim countries?
So in conclusion Osama is just a fag that disgrace verses of Quran and America's efforts are justified?
But GOD's prophet condoned slavery... why?
lol..defend myself means...3 steps....a guy is attacking you...we are supposed to run away if we can....if the man manages to chase you into a situtaion where you cannot run...you may fight...if the attacker runs away or surrender...we should stop....this is the definition of defending...
Islam follows this with many rules....that over personal fights to wars etc...and don't ask stupid questions...Islam doesn't condone blind violence in any way shape or form....defending ones self isn't violence....its called survival....
Don't get me wrong... self-defense is not violence if the intent is not to kill the other person.. this is the key.. your intent important, you cannot kill someone without thinking about it... if you does then it's an accident.. which you had no control over.. I mentioned this in an earlier reply!
Make no mistake my friend.. If anyone kills anyone with hate.. they will suffer and its wrong... be it LTTE or Army or whoever...
YES! the Army killed LTTE and LTTE killed Army, so what? Karma is Karma as long the 5 pre-requisites are completed the sin is official... that's where Buddhism is different there's no special treatment for anyone, all are same!
I can say the same thing about Allah...
Everyday injustice happen, millions die... this is all his creations mind you.. even natural disasters like Tsunamis causes many deaths... who created all this?
And Allah just sit and wait and does nothing to prevent all this...
and about the waiting for ltte that sounds selfish and cowardly to me....to risk ones life to try and save another is a noble thing....its never bad if you managed to save their lives you have helped the whole generation of a family....if that young daughter dies there...how much suffering would there be....for the family...and for the future generations....what if she grows up to cure Aids etc...you never know....
i know what ur next question is...and no a moron who doesn't value a another life is not going to be of any use to society....i mean those you attack for no reason....
So what you are saying is... kill the offender that tries to kill a girl..
So what if the offender gets a rehab and goes on to cure AIDS and the girl grows up to be a serial killer?
You may never know
just coz you don't want to admit it or understand it doesn't become irrelevant....
God gave you a free will....same reason he gave you hormones during your teenage years...so that you go after girls....
If God gives you something....how you use it...that is a test...
you were created by God...because He loved you....and wants to give you a chance...He gave you free will and the tools to chose your own life....what you do with that life....is upto you....and till the day you die...you will keep receiving...
the point of free will...is and always will be no matter how many times you ask...or in what format you ask....to test you....
Do you know what free will is?
Free will is the right believe what you think... you have a free will to believe Islam... fine... so be it!
Likewise I have a free will not to believe it... you don't pretend to give free will to someone and give them warnings about what will happen if they don't..
that's called thuggery!
Define TRUTH first!
Prove it is truth first! then we can talk!
You haven't clarified anything yet...
Why god created us? what does GOD gets from creating us?
Sorry.. back to square one now..
So are you saying that America is right ti attack all countries? especially Muslim countries?
So in conclusion Osama is just a fag that disgrace verses of Quran and America's efforts are justified?
But GOD's prophet condoned slavery... why?
Don't get me wrong... self-defense is not violence if the intent is not to kill the other person.. this is the key.. your intent important, you cannot kill someone without thinking about it... if you does then it's an accident.. which you had no control over.. I mentioned this in an earlier reply!
Make no mistake my friend.. If anyone kills anyone with hate.. they will suffer and its wrong... be it LTTE or Army or whoever...
YES! the Army killed LTTE and LTTE killed Army, so what? Karma is Karma as long the 5 pre-requisites are completed the sin is official... that's where Buddhism is different there's no special treatment for anyone, all are same!
I can say the same thing about Allah...
Everyday injustice happen, millions die... this is all his creations mind you.. even natural disasters like Tsunamis causes many deaths... who created all this?
And Allah just sit and wait and does nothing to prevent all this...
So what you are saying is... kill the offender that tries to kill a girl..
So what if the offender gets a rehab and goes on to cure AIDS and the girl grows up to be a serial killer?
You may never know
Do you know what free will is?
Free will is the right believe what you think... you have a free will to believe Islam... fine... so be it!
Likewise I have a free will not to believe it... you don't pretend to give free will to someone and give them warnings about what will happen if they don't..
lol..ur purposely doing this....i can't be bothered to quote end quote my way saying the same thing again and again....
so yes...why did God create us....same reason He created angels to serve him....but unlike Angels he gave us free will....the ability to think for our own that is free will.....not to do as we want...to do as we want is to be granted freedom....look up the dictionary....
so ur saying the army which helped save so many lives...is getting the same punishment as the LTTE?...Karma has has twisted sense of humor....no....
every gray cloud has a silver lining....even for the Tsunami....we saw how much sri lankans and the whole world cares about each other...maybe that is why God allowed the tsunami....lol
your positive outlook magically disappears when it comes to God no....
PS > Prophet condemned slavery coz another man doesn't and cannot belong to another man as we are equal to each other be we rich poor...black white etc etc.....between God and the humans he created....its a different story...no matter who we are...humans are all servants of God...
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Now where did I oppose Zakir Naik coming here? Actually i welcome him, so his lies can be exposed. Interfaith is dialog is a must, and that's what is not happening as well. And it's Muslims who run away from the dialog when the Quran is exposed and resort to all the diversion tactics and violence. There may be Buddhist fellows who do it as well, but you'd find a core group of Buddhists who put their point directly, and in a civilized way. There may be extreme critisicms and humor, but this core group does not run away from arguments. Ex. Smallvillecleark50, sri_lion, ela_eluwa and few others.
But such a group of Muslims are clearly alcking to make a dialog.
The truth is God does not forgive the sin of associating partners with Him and those who dont will go to hell.Like i said before concept of damnation for disbeleivers exists in every religion and not unique to Islam !
well literally YES ! It does ease the turmoil of a victim ! Dont they getting a comfort that justice has been served and that society hasnt wronged her !
Statistics show that one in every 3 rape convicts released from prison rape again ! We are not willing to take that chance with the women of society ! What Islamic law looks at first is the rights of the victim and to serve justice to the victim and what secular law does is first to defend the culprit !
And besides culprits regretting what they have done wont solve the problem of it happening again ! If to remorse was the consequence to a crime , everyone with will be comitting crime with such a lenient justice system !
However you did not provide an answer to the Polygamy issue I've raised..
Just now you talked about long term effects on rape victims, dont you feel there would be long term effects on children growing up knowing their father belong to many women and many other children?
Havent you heard of step sisters or step brothers getting along even in the WEST? eg the mormons ! And beside its not many women its 4 women ! And its through marriage not illegitimate children.
If God was to come down and rectify everything then wheres the test.Wheres the element of rationale and faith ! It would be like, a teacher gives you a test and answers to the test already there. So if the teacher already gave the answers then?? its not a test. We view life as a gift from God so that we may worship Him and wil be adjudged fairly according to how we have lived here and our circumstances here.
Well in Islam , a girl is considered a woman when she starts having a period and a boy is considered a man when he is able to produce sperm.This is the partitioning.They are held accountable for all the actions and deeds after this point of time. If you are considering by todays standards then in some countries it is 15 14 and even 12 ! Canada is 16 i guess , which means to say if a 16 year old is not yet a woman and has sex then thats completely fine !!! Man made laws,the irony ! Some of our greatgrandmothers and grandmothers would have got married off as soon as they hit puberty.If you were to ask them to compare the 15 year olds then and the 15 year old now , the women (and men for that matter)of times before were far ahead in terms of maturity and being adults so you can imagine the 9 year olds of 1400 years ago.
But then these are all peripheral issues derived from 'our' perception of whats right and whats wrong.I guess we should really ask 'who' determines whats right and whats wrong. Thats what it eventually comes down to.
This is how it goes for muslim ! Muslims should be muslims because we examine the Quran and beleive in it. That is our evidence . It is not only a literary miracle , but a scientific and historical accurate ! Its predictions have come true and the science in it that was written 1400 years have been discovered only now ! If your interested to know the reason why , you can read this http://www.theinimitablequran.com/uniquelitform.pdf http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2008/10/questions-is-linguistic-literary.html. So once weve come to the conclusion that this book is from God we have submitted our will and life to how he has told us , and hence seek peace through it and to live that life doesnt mean to completely seclude yourself from the world , but to indulge in it within the limitations prescribed !
Do good , be dutiful to you neighbours parents and other humans , pray , eat , sleep , marriage , maintain social standard etc etc ! And Good and Bad has been prescribed for us 1400 years ago and it is binding , it is not variable like secular 'good' 'bad' that changes with 'modernity'.These laws are innate with the natural laws of the universe and humans !
Once weve acknowledged that God then we acknowledge that HE is the Creator and the Creator knows better than the creation(us humans) ! So we might not fully comprehend some of the rules but sooner or later come to know that it is better for us even if we dont know it ! This was the case with few earlier muslims , but with clinical social and psychological science progressing we have come to know that these rules are for our betterment (watch From Atheism to Belief: A Journey to Islam in North America by Dr. Jeffrey Lang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1...349D8F552&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1)
lol hey i am here...and i managed the dialogs of everyone above all at once......
maybe if you ppl didn't try to threaten these Muslim members they would speak up....
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