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බාලිසිකොපම සූත්‍රය

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ek_rosh

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  • May 9, 2014
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    nipund said:
    1. we are talking about something that we can not verify our selves . we have to trust Buddha or someone for the interpretation . generally this is true for abidharma.
    2. although we talk about rupa , wedana ,sangna ,sankara , wingnana separetly they do not arise separately . all or non. (non linear)
    3. not an expert on abidharma. but upadana skanda is not there in arahat chitta / sith so disagree on "skandas/upadanaskandas are the same". agree that pruthakjana sith will be upadana skanda .
    4. start and end , this is linear thinking . first skanda then upadana. try to see it in non linear way. it happens together. like when we go some where distance from our starting place increase in same way distance to our location reduces.

    5. I think all "santiirna, vottapana, etc cittas. Inside javanas " are types of sith . they are given names according to the state sith or action thet accomplish.
    sith= experience = panchaskanda
    i would like refer to a earlier discussion . experience is not limited to what we persive . it is everything. conscious + subconscious.
    Click to expand...

    quick question before answering

    one cittas/mind moment - 1 cittaksana
    rupa last - 17 cittaksana

    1 citta viti - 17 cittaksana (mostly)

    do you know why rupa lasts 17 cittaksanas? if you know the answer you already have answers to above...if not ill answer them
    Emios said:
    no nama -rupa is dathu level because of both getting together chakku vinyanaya is born.because of chakku vinyanaya phsycial eye and phsycial rupa apperas.(butha rupa level) they are already cligned. i can draw and show if you want
    Click to expand...

    rupa - datu level - panchasakanda
    ------ Post added on Jul 6, 2026 at 10:53 PM
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    you say rupas in 3 levels?

    rupa - datu level
    rupa - skanda level
    rupa - upadana skanda level

    is that what u say?
    Click to expand...
    no in that verse rupa is dathu level (skanda) (panchaskada)
    when chakku vinyana is born now its butha rupa(upadana rupa,butha level) pancha upadanskanda

    2 rupas
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    terune ne...you say chakku vinnana have...then also midila.. means no chakku vinnana
    Click to expand...
    no bro it means like a lotus leaf, the seeing,hearing doesn't stop its on upadana level,but at the same time isn't touched by it.the rain fall doesnt stop also doesnt stick.kriya sith
     
    E

    ek_rosh

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    Emios said:
    no bro it means like a lotus leaf, the seeing,hearing doesn't stop its on upadana level,but at the same time isn't touched by it.the rain fall doesnt stop also doesnt stick.kriya sith
    Click to expand...

    take it like this:

    there is a factory.. with incoming door... when the door triggers, it starts rolling boxes/rupa (for example) on a belt though different functions

    trigger comes -> boxes rolling -> grabbing happens..

    one that grabbing happesn that box is labeled/called - lovely box (upadana rupa)

    same factory..

    trigger comes -> box rolling (same box) -> no grabbing happens.

    box is rolling but not labeled as lovely box (upadana rupa)

    any intrinsic difference between both boxes?.. no. they are identical. but they were considered/labeled differently how they were handled.
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    take it like this:

    there is a factory.. with incoming door... when the door triggers, it starts rolling boxes/rupa (for example) on a belt though different functions

    trigger comes -> boxes rolling -> grabbing happens..

    one that grabbing happesn that box is labeled/called - lovely box (upadana rupa)

    same factory..

    trigger comes -> box rolling (same box) -> no grabbing happens.

    box is rolling but not labeled as lovely box (upadana rupa)

    any intrinsic difference between both boxes?.. no. they are identical. but they were considered/labeled differently how they were handled.
    Click to expand...
    i guess i read this correctly,the way you wanted to show. what i meant is the box itself is upadana rupa before labeling it.the materials to construct the boxes are dathu rupa.lets say atoms getting together.cannot see.when atoms get together physical eye is born and the physical box. whether you label it or not doesn't change the upadana rupa. lets say if you dont label it a kid would be rahat.because a new born doesnt know what it is.but hes already on updana level
     
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    ek_rosh

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    Emios said:
    i guess i read this correctly,the way you wanted to show. what i meant is the box itself is upadana rupa before labeling it.the materials to construct the boxes are dathu rupa.lets say atoms getting together.cannot see.when atoms get together physical eye is born and the physical box. whether you label it or not doesn't change the upadana rupa. lets say if you dont label it a kid would be rahat.because a new born doesnt know what it is.but hes already on updana level
    Click to expand...

    rupas structure - apo thejo vayo...etc... no matter how you called skanda or upadana.. same structural composition

    you called the rupa - upadana rupa, becuase it was grabbed. not because of any structural changes...
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    rupas structure - apo thejo vayo...etc... no matter how you called skanda or upadana.. same structural composition

    you called the rupa - upadana rupa, becuase it was grabbed. not because of any structural changes...
    Click to expand...
    it's already grabbed.the physical eye and pushcyal box comes through chakku vinyana. imagine chakku vinayana as a film projector .it projects a physical eye and infront of it a phsyical box. both are the result of chakku vinayana,the moment chakku vinayana is born you are joined already. there is nothing the charcter(eye) can do.
     
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    ek_rosh

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    Emios said:
    it's already grabbed.the physical eye and pushcyal box comes through chakku vinyana. imagine chakku vinayana as a film projector .it projects a physical eye and infront of it a phsyical box. both are the result of chakku vinayana,the moment chakku vinayana is born you are joined already. there is nothing the charcter(eye) can do.
    Click to expand...

    the physical eye(for sake of understanding) and the physical box (datu) are not projected by the projector..

    the eye/box you know experience is a projection.
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    the physical eye(for sake of understanding) and the physical box (datu) are not projected by the projector..

    the eye/box you know experience is a projection.
    Click to expand...
    It’s a territory i can’t convey it to you properly.

    If you read that verse throughly you will see

    ඇසත්, (බාහිර) රූපයත් ඇසුරු කරගෙන (ඒ දෙක නිසා) ඇසේ විඥානය (රූපය හඳුනාගන්නා සිත / දැකීම) උපදී. මේ තිදෙනාගේ (ඇස, රූපය, ඇසේ විඥානය යන කරුණු තුනේ) එකතු වීම ස්පර්ශය (ඵස්සය) යි.

    If you take this eye and bahira rupa as physical,joining of two physical things cannot produce hadunegnime sitha/dekima again.because the eye is already born if you take it as phsysical eye already.

    Chakku vinayana projector ,pysichal eye, the outside box is sprashaya(3 clinged already) the exact film projector scene. Thunama ekama thana.
     
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    ek_rosh

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    Emios said:
    The bahira part is ‘form’on skanda level, namyay rupayay skanda level. Deka ekathu wima hinda dakime sitha/eye upadi.
    Click to expand...

    good this is external to the experience. agree?
    will catch ya later. lunch time
    ------ Post added on Jul 7, 2026 at 12:43 AM
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    good this is external to the experience. agree?
    Click to expand...
    Yes external, the experince ,sparshaya born the moment the 3 get together,

    Can you explain what you mean by experince?
    Ok cyl
    ------ Post added on Jul 7, 2026 at 12:44 AM
     
    E

    ek_rosh

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  • May 9, 2014
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    Emios said:
    Yes external, the experince ,sparshaya born the moment the 3 get together,

    Can you explain what you mean by experince?
    Ok cyl
    ------ Post added on Jul 7, 2026 at 12:44 AM
    Click to expand...

    i mean not influenced/contioned by the experience. same for pritajkana/rahat.
     
    Emios

    Emios

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    ek_rosh said:
    i mean not influenced/contioned by the experience. same for pritajkana/rahat.
    Click to expand...
    I didn’t quite get you.lets talk tomorrow,if you see this verses in skanda level you can see sariputta thero in his sutras when he speaks always refers to this skanda level,but we get it as updana level.
     
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