Would u Blow that Boat ? - Dark Knight

[earthling]

OK..I saw the Dark Knight yesterday.. and want to hav a serious discussion on this issue with u guys (if any one is interested that is) & wanna find out whats your take in this ?

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For me the joker represents all of the feelings that we keep hidden inside..But will unleash if we get the chance & had no consequences to face..

Lets take the 2 ferryboats incident.. One has Cons in it & the other are full of the so called innocent civilians.. both have detonators to blow up the other boat.. the choice being "blow the other boat before 12 & U'll live OR U blow up after 12 if u dont"... now the civilians first talk about blowing the cons boat but at the last moment decides not to...Commmon..in reality if u get this choice would u not blow up the cons boat ? Will u consider a Con's life who u dont even know nor care about anyway & even think he deserves it is more important than your own & your loved ones who are going to die ? No fucking way.. If this happened in real life the cons die in the first 5 minutes.. and even if 1 or 2 individuals think otherwise the mob mentality will surely take over...

Everyday we see normal people like us suddenly turn in to a mob & beat up that driver who hits a pedestrian.. Havent we seen normal citizens suddenly turn in to a looting mob when the chance arises & see that they can get away with it without any consequence ?

Fact is if we see that we can get away without any consequences then we will do it.. And thats what the Joker brings in.. He brings chaos & doesn’t care about the what the consequences will be.. So the Joker brings out all the stuff that we might do if we hav the chance but wont do because we are afraid of the consequences..

Any comments on this view ?

 

[kosandpol]

The Joker is a psychotic maniac who kills for pleasure.
He represents only that. In the comics they created the Joker character to be an archenemy for the Batman as a psychotic maniac who likes to have a battle of wits with the batman.
He doesn't represent anything other than that.

 

[earthling]

disagree.. forget about the comics... Nollens vision of the dark knight has nothing to do with the comics.. the only instance where the comics come in to play is for adaptation only..

but u didnt answer my question...

In real life..when we are in a mob.. if we get the task of saving our lives & killing a bunch of cons & had to face no consequences what so ever later..OR saving the cons lives & killing our selves & our loved ones.. What decision would u hav taken ?

dont tell me u'll be noble ?

my point is Joker represents PART of what we dont do because we are afraid to face the consequences afterwords.. If we get the chance to wipe out troublemakers (lets say the rogues, the rapists, the robbers infact the entire mob) and dont have to answer for any of our actions dont you think the masses will not take that chance ?

Dont forget that Joker works on the mob mentality..He always do his stuff on the masses.... the call for the Bats unmasking was done by the masses.. not by an individual... the boat decision was taken by the masses.. not by an individual..

so in that argument a mob mentality will always be different to a single individual's.

Again I point out... the same passengers who travel daily on the same bus will attack the bus driver as a mob if the driver hits a pedestrian (simply because now they have a reason to do it)...normal people will loot if they have the chance & finds out that they can get away with it..

I dont think I'm wrong here

 

[kosandpol]

disagree.. forget about the comics... Nollens vision of the dark knight has nothing to do with the comics.. the only instance where the comics come in to play is for adaptation only..

It has everything to do with the comics. Nolan's versions of Batman stays quite close to the comics than any other batman movie or TV series.

but u didnt answer my question...

You didnt as one.

In real life..when we are in a mob.. if we get the task of saving our lives & killing a bunch of cons & had to face no consequences what so ever later..OR saving the cons lives & killing our selves & our loved ones.. What decision would u hav taken ?

dont tell me u'll be noble ?

my point is Joker represents PART of what we dont do because we are afraid to face the consequences afterwords.. If we get the chance to wipe out troublemakers (lets say the rogues, the rapists, the robbers infact the entire mob) and dont have to answer for any of our actions dont you think the masses will not take that chance ?

Dont forget that Joker works on the mob mentality..He always do his stuff on the masses.... the call for the Bats unmasking was done by the masses.. not by an individual... the boat decision was taken by the masses.. not by an individual..

so in that argument a mob mentality will always be different to a single individual's.

Again I point out... the same passengers who travel daily on the same bus will attack the bus driver as a mob if the driver hits a pedestrian (simply because now they have a reason to do it)...normal people will loot if they have the chance & finds out that they can get away with it..

I dont think I'm wrong here

Again, there's no question asked here.
however , one comment on the beating of the bus driver and looting, the entire bus load of passengers will not be beating the driver, only some will. Others will simply watch and a few will try to stop it. Same goes for looting. Not everyone in town will be looting from the others. Only some will do that. That is the reality.

If you want to question human behavior or mentality, leave Batman out of it. Batman was not written or adapted in to various other media to psycho analyze human behavior. It was created for entertainment and it does that pretty well.

 

[earthling]

It has everything to do with the comics. Nolan's versions of Batman stays quite close to the comics than any other batman movie or TV series.

it stays close... but this movie and comic series the dark knight is not the same...movie is much more darker than the comics series

You didnt as one.

..
yes I would've blown it

Again, there's no question asked here.
however , one comment on the beating of the bus driver and looting, the entire bus load of passengers will not be beating the driver, only some will. Others will simply watch and a few will try to stop it. Same goes for looting. Not everyone in town will be looting from the others. Only some will do that. That is the reality.

partly.. some will beat him but a lot will do nothing & watch..and a lot will approve it..thats also is reality

If you want to question human behavior or mentality, leave Batman out of it. Batman was not written or adapted in to various other media to psycho analyze human behavior. It was created for entertainment and it does that pretty well.

nope nollen is all about directing phycological thrillers.. checkout Memento & even insomnia for that matter..and this is no different..

Well anyways..different people hav different opinions I guess.. lets see what others say

 

[earthling]

This is one of the best reviews I've read about the Joker's role in the Dark Knight

Hope u enjoy it as much as I did

Much ink has been spilled already over Heath Ledger’s performance as the Joker, so I won’t add anything other than his statuette is already in the post. The Joker is psychotic, or at least he is intended to be. I have never dealt with a schizophrenic who was this well organized, and able to plan out an elaborate chess exchange to rival Anderssen’s ‘Immortal Game’, so the allusion of psychosis is bullshit. In reality he is quite sane, quite suicidal, but above all has come to an understanding about human nature. He commits some impressive homicides, but when his own hand is involved, you can see the boredom in his eyes. He only comes alive when he manipulates people into killing each other, which at times is all too easy. The killing is not a goal in itself, and he certainly is not interested in cash – he wishes to hold a mirror to everyone he sees, and convince the reflection that the better angels of our nature are a fabrication of our ego, the sort of thing to help us sleep at night. The way he sees it, he is only performing a public service, though one from which he derives great joy. In this way, his character resembles the corrupt police chief of Bertrand Tavernier’s Coup de Torchon – the murders are but the manifestations of human desires, and are all too easy to arrange. To thine own self be true, and so forth.

The Joker steps into a Gotham City on the verge of breaking the mafia with the help of Batman, who has applied a heavy hand to bring order. Disorder always pushes back, however, and the force required to do so unleashes a wave of terror that leaves the citizens, the cops, and the viewer reeling. The Joker has come to the realization that once you have no reason to hold back, anything is possible. With no fear of police, or Batman, or anything else, he can strike hard enough, and fast enough, to bring the panic to a critical mass, and achieve the chaos necessary to reveal true human character. Lock enough rats in a small enough cage, and they will eat one another to remain alive.

So how does one counter such an onslaught? Conventional police have no purpose here, so Batman must apply extraordinary rendition, torture, massive public surveillance, and war upon the police in order to apply justice. Though his character makes token gestures towards justifying his actions, and the nobility of sacrificing one’s moral code for the greater good, in the end the Joker wins in many different ways. Harvey Dent sings his tune, the people prepare to give in to this terrorist’s demands, and people are driven to commit murder with the greatest haste. Lastly, Batman – thick though he may be on the issue – is coming to realize that the humanity we have so grown to covet is but an artificial construct that we enjoy because it brings us comfort in our elevation above the animals. Deep down we are little more than animals with opposable thumbs (which come in handy with weaponry), and all it takes to reveal that aspect of ourselves is someone with the will to push us to that edge.

Another interesting parallel in the film is the dichotomy between the Joker and Batman, in that they must both survive or they both shall perish. Someone as dangerous as the Joker requires Batman as a sufficiently dangerous response, and justifies his existence, while Batman is what allowed the Joker to be unleashed in the first place. Without one, the other need not exist. Despite some overtures made by Bruce Wayne’s character toward retirement, he seems way too masochistic to consider quitting. He is clearly enjoying himself, though he lacks the Joker’s smile. (I'm putting this example here - SL gov needs the LTTE (War) to survive & the LTTE needs this gov (The War) to survive as well..dont they ?) The sworn enemies need each other to thrive, continually pushing against each other as they consolidate their power, as any conventional definitions of good and evil are left behind in the sandbox with the rest of the toys.

 

[Kalindugayan]

Im still Convertin dat vid to ma Zune

 

[kosandpol]

here's my own take on the movie :
Heath Ledger's portrayal of the joker is simply brilliant and it makes Jack Nicholson's
portrayal look like a circus clown.
Aaron Eckhart's Harvey Dent is pretty good too. As is Christian Bale's performance as Batman/Bruce Wayne but Heath Ledger's performance simply outshines all others. I also see that the critics ravings of Heath Ledger's performance is simply not because he killed himself but that he did some brilliant acting.
Its almost like Joker playing himself in the movie rather than Heath Ledger (or $actor ) playing the joker and that makes Heath Ledger's performance simply brilliant.
I don't see the movie to be hyped up a lot as it stays pretty close to the original characters in the comics and a story is told pretty well without relying too much on action.
I don't see any anti climax since they killed off Harvey Dent in the movie, it is to be expected that Batman takes the blame on himself so that Harvey Dent's character remain unblemished and thus ultimately not letting the Joker win. Here they've changed the characters from the comics as in the comics Harvey Dent is not killed and after Dent becomes Two Face he goes on to be a crime boss.
The social experiment scene with the 2 ferries was beautifully done but my favorite scene is the blowing up of the hospital. That's just simply great. Its funny as well as showing the psychotic nature of the Joker at the same time.

The only not so good acting was by Maggie Gylenhaal (is that how the damn name
is spelled ?) as Rachel Dawes and this is probably because Katie Holmes defined
the character rather like Sean Connery with 007 and also could be that Katie Homes is prettier than Maggie. A third reason maybe because Rachel Dawes exists only in the Christopher Nolan movie adaptations and not in the comics.

All in all, I see this as a good movie and now cant wait to see the next movie in the series which I think is what the goal of the whole movie was in the first place.

 

[coolioWiZ]

First have to say, wow nice thread. . . I've not watched this film but read some comics and watched cartoons so I think I can just inject my two cents into this topic.

The joker is psychopath with no clear consciousness of himself. (this is actually what the designers wanted to portray) His state of mind constantly alters and borders the state of insanity in one time and quite sane another time. A best example is how he treats HarleyQuinn. From the cannon we can observe that the joker has certain feelings for her, he expresses them even in a quite dark taste. But when his state had altered he had even tried to kill her.

When we come to the real world there is no clearly documented cases as such as the joker. There are ppl with multiple personality disorders and schizophrenia but nothing like the joker. It's quite mysterious how when opportunity arise a person can be a criminal . . .this world is hold on by traditions and culture which "civilize" a person. . this maybe due to man being a social animal.(which itself arised coz of the need of survival which would be impossible as an individual) when the certain "dangers" for survival seems to diminish, a person may try to express freely his/her individualism.

Actually if this is correct . . our fundemental belief that man is a social animal is incorrect . . but an obligate parasite who may take chance to seperate from the group as soon as chance presents itself.

just my 2 cents

 

[sri_lion]

In actual story from what I've read in DC books..

Joker loses his job and his wife gets killed, he fell off to a toxic dump or something and turns green and thinking of all this turns him insane! Infact before all this Joker used to work for a MOB BOSS who actually killed BRUCE's girlfriend's father and eventually breaking his partnership too...

And Joker is my favorite villan of all time!!!

 

[kosandpol]

First have to say, wow nice thread. . . I've not watched this film but read some comics and watched cartoons so I think I can just inject my two cents into this topic.

The joker is psychopath with no clear consciousness of himself. (this is actually what the designers wanted to portray) His state of mind constantly alters and borders the state of insanity in one time and quite sane another time. A best example is how he treats HarleyQuinn. From the cannon we can observe that the joker has certain feelings for her, he expresses them even in a quite dark taste. But when his state had altered he had even tried to kill her.

When we come to the real world there is no clearly documented cases as such as the joker. There are ppl with multiple personality disorders and schizophrenia but nothing like the joker. It's quite mysterious how when opportunity arise a person can be a criminal . . .this world is hold on by traditions and culture which "civilize" a person. . this maybe due to man being a social animal.(which itself arised coz of the need of survival which would be impossible as an individual) when the certain "dangers" for survival seems to diminish, a person may try to express freely his/her individualism.

Actually if this is correct . . our fundemental belief that man is a social animal is incorrect . . but an obligate parasite who may take chance to seperate from the group as soon as chance presents itself.

just my 2 cents

Harly Quinn is not an original Character in the DC universe. She enters the comics from the Batman : The animated Series Cartoon. The Character was so popular that they included her to the comics that followed this cartoon.

The Joker played by Heath Ledger in the movies closely resembles the original Joker in the comics of the 40s. A psychopath that will kill simply for the pleasure.
The movie was done quite well and it leaves you waiting to see the next movie in this series.

 

[Kalindugayan]

Im going to watch it today

 

[kosandpol]

In actual story from what I've read in DC books..

Joker loses his job and his wife gets killed, he fell off to a toxic dump or something and turns green and thinking of all this turns him insane! Infact before all this Joker used to work for a MOB BOSS who actually killed BRUCE's girlfriend's father and eventually breaking his partnership too...

And Joker is my favorite villan of all time!!!

If memory serves, this is the history of the Joker as told in the Frank Miller's Graphic novels version (I could be wrong there though). Batman : The animated series and few other Batman movies (animated) follows this history.

 

[coolioWiZ]

The Joker played by Heath Ledger in the movies closely resembles the original Joker in the comics of the 40s. A psychopath that will kill simply for the pleasure.
The movie was done quite well and it leaves you waiting to see the next movie in this series.

Heath Ledger was such a talented actor . RIP

The character harleyquinn sometimes humanize the joker. So we don't see the original psychopath in comics with harleyquinn. Heath Ledger and the crew resorted to the original psychopath and portrayed the joker as a cold blooded creature with no emotion. This is quite essential in an action superhero film. The superhero should be glorified while the villian should be 100% evil . . not a character which is supposed to display a little bit of humanity, which will make the viewers sympathize the character.

 

[sri_lion]

If memory serves, this is the history of the Joker as told in the Frank Miller's Graphic novels version (I could be wrong there though). Batman : The animated series and few other Batman movies (animated) follows this history.

Yeah from DC itself.... they had some encyclopedia or something about their DC universe neh!

Anyway... yes this story is followed by the animated series and Harley is actually the physiotherapist appointed to Joker when he was in the jail.. but this bugger managed to make her fall in love with him!! And she helped him escape... later she also went mad

But as I remember according to the animated series it is Robin who shoots him and kills him at the end after Harley and Joker take Robin as a prisoner and make him MAD too!!

 

[kosandpol]

But as I remember according to the animated series it is Robin who shoots him and kills him at the end after Harley and Joker take Robin as a prisoner and make him MAD too!!

You're talking about the Batman Beyond : return of the joker movie. That's how the history is shown in that movie. According to that movie. the first Robin (Dick Greyson I think) leaves Batman after that incident.

 

[kosandpol]

Heath Ledger was such a talented actor . RIP

The character harleyquinn sometimes humanize the joker. So we don't see the original psychopath in comics with harleyquinn. Heath Ledger and the crew resorted to the original psychopath and portrayed the joker as a cold blooded creature with no emotion. This is quite essential in an action superhero film. The superhero should be glorified while the villian should be 100% evil . . not a character which is supposed to display a little bit of humanity, which will make the viewers sympathize the character.

This is somewhat of a misunderstanding. Batman is not a superhero. He's an Anti Hero. That's how they first created the Batman character (in '39 when Bob Kane and others came up with this character). The first Batman used guns and did kill the bad guys. He was not like the other Superheros (such as superman) who were 100% good.
They created a character that used intimidation, violence, blackmail and other 'non hero' methods to do good. Some of these methods are still being used by latter and even today's Batman but not as strongly. Its the 50s and the 60s, 'Less violence in comics' drive that actually toned down the Bat to what he is today and thats also why Robin was introduced. To make the comic more kid friendly.

Batman is primarily a detective. That's where his skills are and thats what he did in the first comics. These traits were not portrayed much in the movies except for getting the finger print off the bullet in the movie but as Nolan says, these will be shown more in the next Batman movie.

 

[coolioWiZ]

This is somewhat of a misunderstanding. Batman is not a superhero. He's an Anti Hero. That's how they first created the Batman character (in '39 when Bob Kane and others came up with this character). The first Batman used guns and did kill the bad guys. He was not like the other Superheros (such as superman) who were 100% good.
They created a character that used intimidation, violence, blackmail and other 'non hero' methods to do good. Some of these methods are still being used by latter and even today's Batman but not as strongly. Its the 50s and the 60s, 'Less violence in comics' drive that actually toned down the Bat to what he is today and thats also why Robin was introduced. To make the comic more kid friendly.

Batman is primarily a detective. That's where his skills are and thats what he did in the first comics. These traits were not portrayed much in the movies except for getting the finger print off the bullet in the movie but as Nolan says, these will be shown more in the next Batman movie.

I was taking the general situation in these type of comics and in fact all heroic epics. The hero is emphasised to be 100% good while the villian be 100% evil . . it kinda frames the characters 2D and doesn't lead to true development of them.

Thanks for clarifying on the batman matter . . . i know about his escape skills which he learnt from a magician, but not much about being originally created as an antihero . . . i now think if that antihero mentality continued then instead of a totally white or totally black character we should have got a grey character. . a true believeable person who is subjected to human failures and triumphs. . . i feel like expecting too much from a comic which is designed to cater a narrow scope. . but it's nice to know that they are gonna give more attention to batman character development in the next movie

 

[kosandpol]

I was taking the general situation in these type of comics and in fact all heroic epics. The hero is emphasised to be 100% good while the villian be 100% evil . . it kinda frames the characters 2D and doesn't lead to true development of them.

Thanks for clarifying on the batman matter . . . i know about his escape skills which he learnt from a magician, but not much about being originally created as an antihero . . . i now think if that antihero mentality continued then instead of a totally white or totally black character we should have got a grey character. . a true believeable person who is subjected to human failures and triumphs. . . i feel like expecting too much from a comic which is designed to cater a narrow scope. . but it's nice to know that they are gonna give more attention to batman character development in the next movie

Batman is a gray character when compared to most other superheros. The only uncorrectable thing in him is that he will not use his skills to do bad. Except for this, he's quite a believable character as he has absolutely no super powers. As shown in the movie as well, he has no problem in breaking the legs of the mob boss or kicking swat team's ass. He even carries a bit of kryptonite in his belt (as shown in Justice League) just in case Superman goes bad. That shows that he doesn't trust anyone. Even superheros.
In the 2D world superheros the Bat became extremely popular because he's a 3D character.
These traits were copied by all other superhero creators after seeing how popular the Bat became. That's why Marvel's Iron man is an alcoholic and werewolf is a bully, etc.

 

[coolioWiZ]

Batman is a gray character when compared to most other superheros. The only uncorrectable thing in him is that he will not use his skills to do bad. Except for this, he's quite a believable character as he has absolutely no super powers. As shown in the movie as well, he has no problem in breaking the legs of the mob boss or kicking swat team's ass. He even carries a bit of kryptonite in his belt (as shown in Justice League) just in case Superman goes bad. That shows that he doesn't trust anyone. Even superheros.
In the 2D world superheros the Bat became extremely popular because he's a 3D character.
These traits were copied by all other superhero creators after seeing how popular the Bat became. That's why Marvel's Iron man is an alcoholic and werewolf is a bully, etc.

Seems you are very familiar with the marvel and DC universes.

I like gray characters . . .coz i feel character development is essential for a good story. I mostly read fantasy and science fiction novels and i like those with a good plot line and believable characters . .some are the 2d good/evil mold . .but there are fantastic works with gray and believeable characters (for eg george r.r. martin's song of ice and fire series)
In the real world we never get always good or always bad characters . .people just react to the current situation, whether the action is good or evil depends on the intepretation of others around that person.