විශ්වාස, ආගම් සහ විද්‍යාව

[ek_rosh]

මම අහපු ප්‍රශ්නෙට වැල් බයිලා නැතිව මට ek_rosh ගෙන් උත්තරයක් හම්බවුනා.

මම උදාහරණයක් දෙන්නද? (මේක මනම්කල්පිත උදාහරණයක්)

මට ළමයි දෙන්නෙක් ඉන්නව කියමු. දුවෙකුයි. පුතෙකුයි

බුදුදහමේ එක theory එකකින් කියවෙනවා මනුස්සයෙකුට ඉන්න පුළුවන් ළමයි එකක්විතරයි කියල. මම එළබෙන්න ඕනේ කුමන නිගමනයකටද ?

(1) මට එක ළමයයි ඉන්නේ

(2) ළමයි කියන්නේ worldly observations/ pruthakjana point of view නිසා ළමයි එක්කෙනෙක් ඉන්නවද දෙන්නෙක් ඉන්නවද කියන එක කතා කිරීම පල රහිත දෙයක්. (worldly observations are deceiving )

(3) theory එක වැරදියි නැතිනම් සැකයි. මට ළමයි දෙන්නෙක් ඉන්නවා

(4) ඉහත කි සියල්ල අදාල නැහැ නිවනට. ඒ නිසා theory ගැන වද වෙන්න එපා

This is your wrong interpretation or misunderstanding of what I said.

The theory doesnt question about kids you have. It questions about the validity your existence. When you cant validate your own existence, what is the point of asking your kids existence?

 

[BINGU_PUTHA]

පලවෙනි ළමයා ඉන්නවා කියලා දැන ගත්තේ?
සමහර විට, pregnancy test එක පාස් වෙලා කියලා දැනගත්ත දවසේ.
pregnancy test, pregnant වෙනවා, සෙක්ස්, ඉපදෙනවා.. කියන දේවලුත් කලින් දැනගෙන හිටිය නිසා තමයි ඒක දැනගන්න පුලුවන් වුනේ.

ඔයා කවද්ද, ඔයා ඉපදුනා කියලා දැනගත්තේ?
ඉපදුන දවසෙද නැත්තම්, එහෙම දෙයක් වෙනවා.. කියලා පලවෙනියටම දැනගත්ත දවසෙද?

මම අහපු සරල ප්‍රශ්නෙට උත්තරය තමයි (3).

ඕකට මහා ලොකු theory ඕනේ නැහැ. සරල ප්‍රශ්නයක්.

This is your wrong interpretation or misunderstanding of what I said.

The theory doesnt question about kids you have. It questions about the validity your existence. When you cant validate your own existence, what is the point of asking your kids existence?

I just want to say that apply theory to applications and see whether they make sense.

so we all agree that Buddist theories such as Karma, re-Birth are poorly defined/described, no strong evidence, no strong observations (from pruthakjana point of view)

 

[MrFrog]

Human population is approximatley 8 billion as of 2023. There are estimated 10^19 living beings in this work. When you think about possibility of attaining Nirwana for all ..you realize it is not practical. (But you can still argue after long long long time, it is possible.)
But I think this indirectly proves that that religion is not real.

Who said all gonna attain nirwana?

Hey @ek_rosh , Just a question around the same thing which was asked by @BINGU_PUTHA . This is a "loukika" question about sansaara, so I believe this can be answered in 'Laukika' language.
It is said that sansaara has no beginning. It cannot have a start in theory because then it cannot explain the causes of the "beginning" then. If that's the case, there should be infinite number of Buddha's have already appeared in this world. And if the number of living beings are finite (no matter how big the number is), they should already be attained nibbana, theoretically. What do you think?
(I personally do not believe sansaara or karma or rebirth. And to attain nibbana one does not need to believe or have faith in those concepts.)

 

[ek_rosh]

I just want to say that apply theory to applications and see whether they make sense.

Sure. NO theory will make sense if you apply wrong.

so we all agree that Buddist theories such as Karma, re-Birth are poorly defined/described, no strong evidence, no strong observations (from pruthakjana point of view)

First of all when did I ever agree that karma and rebirth are poorly defined?

Hey @ek_rosh , Just a question around the same thing which was asked by @BINGU_PUTHA . This is a "loukika" question about sansaara, so I believe this can be answered in 'Laukika' language.
It is said that sansaara has no beginning. It cannot have a start in theory because then it cannot explain the causes of the "beginning" then. If that's the case, there should be infinite number of Buddha's have already appeared in this world. And if the number of living beings are finite (no matter how big the number is), they should already be attained nibbana, theoretically. What do you think?

I can answer these things only up to the best of my knowledge: from my understanding, in both therevada and Mahayana, the number of beings is considered countlessly infinite. The Buddha himself explained that within his lifespan, # of peoples understanding is like comparing the amount of sand that fits on a fingernail vs entire earth. Logically, each buddhas cycle should be the same.

(I personally do not believe sansaara or karma or rebirth. And to attain nibbana one does not need to believe or have faith in those concepts.)

Yes, many people came to the Buddha seeking to attain Nirvana, with no interest in samsara/karma or rebirth.

 

[MrFrog]

I can answer these things only up to the best of my knowledge: from my understanding, in both therevada and Mahayana, the number of beings is considered countlessly infinite. The Buddha himself explained that within his lifespan, # of peoples understanding is like comparing the amount of sand that fits on a fingernail vs entire earth. Logically, each buddhas cycle should be the same.



Yes, many people came to the Buddha seeking to attain Nirvana, with no interest in samsara/karma or rebirth.

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I agree that one possible answer is what you just told, which is infinite number of beings, even though I go with the other possibility. Cheers

 

[BINGU_PUTHA]

First of all when did I ever agree that karma and rebirth are poorly defined?

I think you missed some of previos discussions. For example if someone killed one fish, you may get a punishment and f someone killedten fish, you may get 10* punishment ? When you will get panishment? In this life or after life. I think the Buddism I learnt, we cant tell how karma is effected in definite way.

 

[sinhawanshaya]

 

[BINGU_PUTHA]

Another thing is AI. In my lifetime, I never thought that people create someting that is close to human intelligent. This huge leap happened suddenly.
Now we cvan undestand how human brain works.
Now "some" scientists are arguing about possibility of creating AI consciousness. As some theories suggest that consciousness emerges naturally. May be tomorrow, 2 years, 10 years...scientists may say we know how self-awareness and consciousness work. We have to prepare our mind for that.

---

In the early human history, GOD is responsible for many things. Lightning, movements of plants (it is very complicated when observed from earth, volcanoes, humans (humansa are complex and should be created by god ?) and thousands of other things With the advancement of science, GOD is a ever receding entity.
Science needs to still figure out how mind work in detail. Mind is strange for the time being and religions occupy that space. History proves that it is a matter of time to undestand these things.
------ Post added on Nov 25, 2025 at 8:17 PM

 

[ek_rosh]

I think you missed some of previos discussions. For example if someone killed one fish, you may get a punishment and f someone killedten fish, you may get 10* punishment ? When you will get panishment? In this life or after life. I think the Buddism I learnt, we cant tell how karma is effected in definite way.

I can surely attest that I havent said such a thing even in those discussions.

Anyway, back to the point:

You need to study things thoroughly in order to prove or disprove something. Learning just a piece here and there and then trying to refute karma or buddhism is like my grandmother trying to disprove quantum field theory with zero knowledge of both QM and special relativity.

The buddha may have given simple examples suited to the listeners level of intelligence just as I would explain QFT to my grandmother. It may not have been the most profound or technically precise description, but it was enough to satisfy the listener to get on to the path.

As I said before, karma and rebirth are functions/properties/behaviors of the stream of consciousness (sine-wave). Vipaka is like a polynomial with an infinite # of coefficients. Which coefficient dominates determines when and where the vipaka ripens. Understanding all of those infinite coefficients is neither practical nor necessary in the context of the path to nirvana. (or anybody in the world)

A comprehensive explanation is given in the abhidamma covering all types of cittas/consciousnesses and vipaka that a sentient being can experience if somone is interested in reading.

 

[BINGU_PUTHA]

I can surely attest that I havent said such a thing even in those discussions.

Anyway, back to the point:

You need to study things thoroughly in order to prove or disprove something. Learning just a piece here and there and then trying to refute karma or buddhism is like my grandmother trying to disprove quantum field theory with zero knowledge of both QM and special relativity.

The buddha may have given simple examples suited to the listeners level of intelligence just as I would explain QFT to my grandmother. It may not have been the most profound or technically precise description, but it was enough to satisfy the listener to get on to the path.

As I said before, karma and rebirth are functions/properties/behaviors of the stream of consciousness (sine-wave). Vipaka is like a polynomial with an infinite # of coefficients. Which coefficient dominates determines when and where the vipaka ripens. Understanding all of those infinite coefficients is neither practical nor necessary in the context of the path to nirvana. (or anybody in the world)

A comprehensive explanation is given in the abhidamma covering all types of cittas/consciousnesses and vipaka that a sentient being can experience if somone is interested in reading.

I undestand your point. I simply asked whether actions and relevent punishments are lineraly dependent according to karma (theoritically). One of Monk here said it is not linear. It simply strength the bad karma you already had. If it is not linearly dependent, then what?

(whether we actually get the punishments or not is a different matter)

 

[ek_rosh]

I undestand your point. I simply asked whether actions and relevent punishments are lineraly dependent according to karma (theoritically). One of Monk here said it is not linear. It simply strength the bad karma you already had. If it is not linearly dependent, then what?

(whether we actually get the punishments or not is a different matter)

for the sake of understanding, as I said before karma is like additional frequencies/vibrations added to the fundamental frequency of consciousness (main sine-wave) with every action(thought) you perform. The specific frequency and its intensity depend both on the thought/consciousness you had and on your fundamental frequency. For ex, an Arahants fundamental frequency leaves no room for additional vibrations to be added, no matter what they do.

Now, all new consciousnesses (vipaka cittas) that arise (through seeing, hearing, thinking...) are conditioned by these previosuly added vibrations to the fundamental. The degree of conditioning is like a polynomial of all the vibrations added previously, with variable coefficients.

A vipaka citta may be conditioned by a single frequency (with all other coefficients zeroed) or by 150 coefficients with different weights across multiple frequencies. You can see how complex this can get and why it is pointless to try to calculate every possible interaction, just like one is trying to calculate all the possibilities that could lead to death whether by heart attack, stroke, car crash, poisoning, or even a plane crash on his head (who knowz how many even exists). Some interactions may be useful to understand but it is impossible to account for everything even though each interaction still has a non-zero probability.

Also, some of these frequencies can amplify over time as new vibrations are added, others may diminish and never condition a future citta (meaning no vipaka arises from that action).

You may have heard this karma leads to that, and so on. They can be specific situations under some of these conditions. It doesnt mean it is such every time, as you see, things are complex and depend on various factors (frequencies)

---

------ Post added on Dec 8, 2025 at 1:46 AM

 

[BINGU_PUTHA]

for the sake of understanding, as I said before karma is like additional frequencies/vibrations added to the fundamental frequency of consciousness (main sine-wave) with every action(thought) you perform. The specific frequency and its intensity depend both on the thought/consciousness you had and on your fundamental frequency. For ex, an Arahants fundamental frequency leaves no room for additional vibrations to be added, no matter what they do.

Now, all new consciousnesses (vipaka cittas) that arise (through seeing, hearing, thinking...) are conditioned by these previosuly added vibrations to the fundamental. The degree of conditioning is like a polynomial of all the vibrations added previously, with variable coefficients.

A vipaka citta may be conditioned by a single frequency (with all other coefficients zeroed) or by 150 coefficients with different weights across multiple frequencies. You can see how complex this can get and why it is pointless to try to calculate every possible interaction, just like one is trying to calculate all the possibilities that could lead to death whether by heart attack, stroke, car crash, poisoning, or even a plane crash on his head (who knowz how many even exists). Some interactions may be useful to understand but it is impossible to account for everything even though each interaction still has a non-zero probability.

Also, some of these frequencies can amplify over time as new vibrations are added, others may diminish and never condition a future citta (meaning no vipaka arises from that action).

You may have heard this karma leads to that, and so on. They can be specific situations under some of these conditions. It doesnt mean it is such every time, as you see, things are complex and depend on various factors (frequencies)

---

------ Post added on Dec 8, 2025 at 1:46 AM

I undestand your point. When you combine with other factors (in your case frequencies), it may be very complicated according to Buddism. But pure theoritically speaking, you should be able to say whether it is linear or not.

Lets take an example. Using Newtons laws, you can predict a projectile of a stone when you throw it. You may say, it is very complicated as there are other factors such as wind which is very difficult to model. But when we analyze someting, we neglect all other factors like wind etc for simplicity. From Newtons laws, you can theoritically predict, if the initial speed is doubled, whether disctance is doubled or not very clearly. There is a clear answer from that theory, although in practice it can be a different story.

 

[ek_rosh]

I undestand your point. When you combine with other factors (in your case frequencies), it may be very complicated according to Buddism. But pure theoritically speaking, you should be able to say whether it is linear or not.

Of course, it is not linear as I said before. Some karma may not even take effect depending on the state of the mind.

Lets take an example. Using Newtons laws, you can predict a projectile of a stone when you throw it. You may say, it is very complicated as there are other factors such as wind which is very difficult to model. But when we analyze someting, we neglect all other factors like wind etc for simplicity. From Newtons laws, you can theoritically predict, if the initial speed is doubled, whether disctance is doubled or not very clearly. There is a clear answer from that theory, although in practice it can be a different story.

Yes, we ignore many things in Newtonian laws such as relativistic effects, quantum effects, etc. Does that mean they are not there? No, they are still present, but they are not important in the context of day to day life for an ordinary person. Same is goes with karma: buddha explained what is understandable and important in the context of progress along the path for a regular person.

 

[BINGU_PUTHA]

Of course, it is not linear as I said before. Some karma may not even take effect depending on the state of the mind.

Good. But theoritically this non-linear relationship can not be described in quantitative way?

 

[ek_rosh]

Good. But theoritically this non-linear relationship can not be described in quantitative way?

Can you quantify mental factors (love, hate, etc..) ?

Karma, rebirth, all these things are complex behaviors of mental factors (52 can't remember the exact #)